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Do HIV and AIDS exist

A person must be incredibly ignorant to ignore the mountain of evidence that was not only presented here, but linked to and explained.
*head hitting wall*
 
Specifically, though, you'd have to take each case individually. I once reviewed a list of people who allegedly had AIDS, but not HIV, and actually, they didn't have AIDS by any known definition. Often, they had Kaposi's Sarcomas, but this is not sufficient to diagnose AIDS. Others had HTLV, which is another virus that infects CD4 cells and causes immunodeficiency.

Blutoski, I didn't mean to ignore your input here. I was engrossed in research, and overlooked your point. HIV was called
HTLV-III in the early days. Note this study -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2443528&dopt=Abstract
Therefore, this study provides evidence that such abnormalities in seronegative individuals are present prior to any exposure to the HTLVIII virus. Thus, infection with the virus probably aggravates the preexisting immune impairments, leading eventually to the development of AIDS.

Or, http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/224/4648/497

There are hundreds more studies like that. Thousands actually. When you say HTLV, what do you mean? HTLV-1 doesn't cause immune problems, it causes cancer. (sometimes). HTLV-II isn't known to cause anything yet. HTLV-III is now called HIV, and HTLV-IV is a complete unknown, except to some current researchers. So what HTLV did they have?

You don't even need to go that far: why do people with Epstein-Barr sometimes get ill, but sometimes not? Why do billions of people with varicella virus infections from childhood chickenpox not develop shingles until they're in their 90s?

Those are good questions. Ones that get to the heart of the matter. Remember when AIDS was considered a death verdict? And we were warned about how it would infect one out of five heterosexuals by 1990? Why do some diseases not cause disease? And why do some people not believe in them?

Why do some Doctors (and skeptics) not believe in Fibromyalgia Syndrome, FMS) Multiple chemical sensitivities (MCS), Gulf War syndrome (GWS), Post-polio syndrome or Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)?

Viral dormancy is a mystery. It is not, however, exclusively an HIV mystery.

That is for sure. Bacterial infections suffer the same questions. Why do some people get sick and others don't? Why do some people have an agent always in them, but never get sick? Why does exposure to HTLV not cause illness?

And why do people with AIDS not have HIV?
 
My personal opinion is not that Duesberg has slipped his cracker: I suspect he painted himself into a corner and has chosen to start a new career as a big fish in the denialist pond and make an easy fortune, rather than return to the scientific fold with such little currency, and have to redouble his efforts to restore his old career.

Its funny, but I didn't know about Duesberg until this topic. I guess he doesn't listen to people on message boards, because he keeps inventing stuff and doing research. It took two seconds to find -

Last Update: 5:43 PM ET Jan 8, 2007
Modern Technology Corp. Announces Completion of AnuCyte Cancer Detection System Acquisition, Executes Definitive Agreement

The inventor of the AnuCyte system, Dr. David Rasnick, Ph.D and his scientific research collaborator, Dr. Peter Duesberg, Ph.D, have been prominent names internationally for many years for their research and publications.

The AnuCyte Cancer Detection System is an automated machine that can rapidly detect any form of cancer. The system accurately identifies cancer at any stage in its development and also identifies healthy cancer-free cells in the same test within the same sample. The system eliminates heretofore unreliable, subjective, and error-prone pathology detection of cancer and delivers an automated and objective measurement of the presence or absence of cancer. The AnuCyte system is the first and only system in the world that uses the measurement of advanced chromosomal imbalance as the primary or sole means of detecting cancer. The company is not aware of any automated system in the world more accurate, or even close to AnuCyte's accuracy.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={8EF8937E-6AF1-430B-87F7-D3B8FBB02679}

I wish more people would slip their crackers like that. Maybe we could cure cancer and stuff.

Cancer seems to be his thing. Funny, but his research on cancer was once subject to the same sort of denial that his HIV comments are subject to. And even more interesting, is this from Robert C. Gallo
back in 1984.
"It is time now to introduce my friend Peter Duesberg. Where do I begin? At NIH, Peter is sometimes known as the battling bulldog. He gets his teeth into something and 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years later those teeth are still sunk in it."

Boy was Gallo right about that.
 
A person must be incredibly ignorant to ignore the mountain of evidence that was not only presented here, but linked to and explained.
*head hitting wall*

Now now, most people don't have time to read links and study stuff. Don't be hard on them. This is also difficult to understand. Most people just believe what the authorities tell them, and feel good.

You have to be nuts to go against the herd mind. :hb:
 
Robinson, why don't you tell us what is missing from the NIH fact sheet? Exactly what study do you want to see?
 
Those are good questions. Ones that get to the heart of the matter. Remember when AIDS was considered a death verdict? And we were warned about how it would infect one out of five heterosexuals by 1990? Why do some diseases not cause disease? And why do some people not believe in them?

And do you actually understand why the "one in five" prediction failed to manifest? It's pretty obvious the answer to that is a resounding "no", because you've missed the rest of that particular reference.

"Remember when AIDS was considered a death verdict?" Yes, I do. It still is. Fortunately, thanks to researchers in the scientific who understand exactly what AIDS is, and how to treat retrovirus infections, we've managed to stave off that verdict for a substantial number of years in most HIV-infected individuals.

"And we were warned about how it would infect one out of five heterosexuals by 1990?" I remember these claims quite well; but apparently your memory is considerably more limited. The actual statement was one in five "unless safer sexual practices are adopted". It was a several-orders-of-magnitude increase in the use of condoms, screening of potential sexual partners, regular STD testing, and other safe sex practices that slowed not only the rate of HIV infection, but also the rate of infection of other STDs. Not only among heterosexuals either, but among the homosexual community as well (although more slowly, as the latter has historically been resistent to safe sex practices).

As for your "Why do some diseases not cause disease?" gibberish, I'm going to assume that you meant "Why do some pathogens appear to not cause disease?". The answer to that is extremely complex, depends greatly on the type of pathogen you're referring to, and would require a considerably greater education on your part than you currently display. An education, I might add, that others have been attempting to provide, and which you have been steadfastly resisting. The answer to your other question, "And why do some people not believe in them?" is far more simple: because they're idiots.
 
Its funny, but I didn't know about Duesberg until this topic. I guess he doesn't listen to people on message boards, because he keeps inventing stuff and doing research. It took two seconds to find -

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={8EF8937E-6AF1-430B-87F7-D3B8FBB02679}

I wish more people would slip their crackers like that. Maybe we could cure cancer and stuff.

I think I've made myself clear that he's not crazy: just a crook.

The Anucyte is of dubious merit: it is based on his questionable claim that cancer is not a genetic disorder, but a chromosomal one. This is so clearly false that it's obvious the machine will not work as described. That's why it's not 'big news': it's just one more quack diagnosis, to be listed alongside applied kinesiology and pendulumn diagnostics.





Cancer seems to be his thing. Funny, but his research on cancer was once subject to the same sort of denial that his HIV comments are subject to.

Yes, this is because when GRID/AIDS was first categorized, he and Gallo were on the cusp of research on account of the possibility that it could be a new type of cancer. It resembled HTLV, which was (at the time) a recently identified virus-borne cancer that infected CD4 cells. Gallo claimed to have 'discovered' a new strain that he named "HTLV-2" (thus a soap opera began re: who actually discoverd HIV). Duesberg claimed instead that GRID/AIDS was the product of a seedy lifestyle (homosexual behavior, inhaled (poppers) or iv drug use, prostitution).

However, when evidence mounted that this was not a strain of HTLV, Gallo changed his interpretation. ie: Gallo is saying that he is open to novel and unconventional interpretations, whereas Duesberg has simply never budged from his original prejudices.
 
Blutoski, I didn't mean to ignore your input here. I was engrossed in research, and overlooked your point. HIV was called
HTLV-III in the early days. Note this study -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2443528&dopt=Abstract


Or, http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/224/4648/497

There are hundreds more studies like that. Thousands actually. When you say HTLV, what do you mean? HTLV-1 doesn't cause immune problems, it causes cancer. (sometimes). HTLV-II isn't known to cause anything yet. HTLV-III is now called HIV, and HTLV-IV is a complete unknown, except to some current researchers. So what HTLV did they have?

Note: HIV is my field of research.

HTLV-1. Yes, this is cancer. It's cancer of the CD4 cells. Cancer of the immune system cells. This is exactly the type of cell that's infected with HIV. Consequently, the symptoms are similar: people with HTLV have a collapsed immune system, and die of ancillary infections, such as pneumonia, and get Kaposi's Sarcomas. HIV was never really 'called' HTLV - this was merely the leading proposal during a period of much rapid change in the field.





Those are good questions. Ones that get to the heart of the matter. Remember when AIDS was considered a death verdict? And we were warned about how it would infect one out of five heterosexuals by 1990?

I remember being told there was a one-in-a-million chance that anybody would ever get it. There's a difference between what was announced by somebody somewhere sometime, versus actual projections from professionals. Media tends to be alarmist.

Also: things change, and projections are based on assumptions that may turn out to be mitigated. For example, we figured out how to screen it from the blood supply. Secondly, people started using condoms. Recall that at the time, STD was common in the 20-30 year old age bracket, and most were treatable, so people did not protect themselves.




Why do some diseases not cause disease? And why do some people not believe in them?

You'll have to be more specific.




Why do some Doctors (and skeptics) not believe in Fibromyalgia Syndrome, (FMS) Multiple chemical sensitivities (MCS), Gulf War syndrome (GWS), Post-polio syndrome or Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)?

You have a mixed bag here: FMS and CFS are more or less medically accepted. If a doctor rejects the diagnosis, he's more likely engaged in malpractise rather than 'of a different opinion'. The two controversies are regarding their root cause(s) and treatment, and secondly, there's a controversy about patients who self-diagnose and their doctor disagrees, because they don't meet the actual criteria. Just because a doctor doesn't believe that Mabel has FMS doesn't mean he doesn't think there is such a thing. (as an example, my wife is a psychiatrist who is certain that dissociative disorder exists, but every patient of hers who has claimed they have it is just plain lying - she looks forward to the day she gets a real one)


In contrast, MCS GWS and PPD are dubious diagnoses, and have not been added to diagnostic tools. See my review of MCS.

Regardless, these conditions are also very different than the HIV controversy in that there is no physical presentment that cannot be explained by other factors. AIDS cannot be explained by any model with the reliability and robustness that it receives from the HIV model.





That is for sure. Bacterial infections suffer the same questions. Why do some people get sick and others don't? Why do some people have an agent always in them, but never get sick? Why does exposure to HTLV not cause illness?

These questions can sometimes be answered on an individual basis.

Sometimes, a patient is HIV+, but it turns out, the test was a false positive. These anomalies are impossible to resolve when they are historical. You can do a good test today, but if the prior test was ten years ago, there's no building a time machine to see if they *really* had the result back then that the test produced. There are different types of HIV tests, based on different principles, and they can produce contradictory results.

In the case of disease resistance in general: the specific immune system is unique to every individual, and based on a mix of genetic starting material, and exposure history (magnitude and frequency). Individuals vary in their resistance as a result of this mix. Even identical twins have variability.

And why do people with AIDS not have HIV?

Often, a patient is misdiagnosed, for example. Like the HTLV patients mentioned above. I have not been able to locate an actual example of a testable AIDS patient who is HIV-. These anecdotes appear to be apocryphal.
 
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Now now, most people don't have time to read links and study stuff. Don't be hard on them. This is also difficult to understand. Most people just believe what the authorities tell them, and feel good.

Yes, that's part of skepticism and the scientific method: division of labour. Recognition of experts, and weighing their opinions heavier than of those with less currency in the field in question.




You have to be nuts to go against the herd mind. :hb:

Particularly in South Africa, where "HIV does not cause AIDS" is the law of the land, thanks to Duesberg.
 
Now now, most people don't have time to read links and study stuff. Don't be hard on them. This is also difficult to understand. Most people just believe what the authorities tell them, and feel good.

You have to be nuts to go against the herd mind. :hb:

It has nothing to with a herd. It's called evidence. EASILY REVIEWED evidence. You keep arguing in circles and don't seem to be able to ingest anything but what you already believe based on false information. Why?

Authorities NOTHING. It's called looking and reading. Do you have any idea what RNA is yet??
 
Linda, you seem to be making unscientific claims, based on limited knowledge, with no research. While it might make you feel good, it doesn't advance knowledge in any way. Give us some information to back up your point.

I already told you - this is within my area of expertise. My statements are based on knowledge and experience. It doesn't make me feel good, because I know that you will simply ridicule and ignore me. But I felt that it was my responsibility to at least try.

Based on your comments, I shouldn't listen to you, because you said it on the Internet. :wackylaugh:

No, I commented that you should listen to people with expertise in this area. There have been several participating in this thread.

You don't have any idea of the information I have found, because either I didn't link to it, or you didn't read the links. Take your own advice. It is difficult to understand some issues. That is one reason I am skeptical of people who make claims that they can't back up with any real evidence, other than they said so. Or worse, everybody knows it.

Skepticism in not about dismissing anything that anyone says to you. It is about understanding the validity and credibility of various sources of information. And about understanding your own limitations.

Linda
 
I already told you - this is within my area of expertise. My statements are based on knowledge and experience. It doesn't make me feel good, because I know that you will simply ridicule and ignore me. But I felt that it was my responsibility to at least try.

I try not to ridicule or ignore anyone, even the obviously delusional. Two people here have claimed to be experts in this matter. I'm willing to accept this based on your input, rather than asking for you to break your anonymous status here, by proving it. Fair enough? Same for anyone else. You say you have special knowledge, and you want to be anonymous? Fine by me. Show me the evidence.

As for myself, I have always been sure of my beliefs.

I'm 100% sure HIV is a cause of AIDS, and I am 100% sure there is data to show this. So far nobody here has provided any such evidence. I knowthe evidence exist, because I have viewed it, and this evidence has been around since 1985. Recent evidence confirms this. There is no doubt that HIV is one cause of AIDs.

That being said, there are still issues, related to the court case.

Does HIV exposure always cause AIDS? Can you have HIV and never get AIDS? Can you have AIDS but not HIV? What are the chances of sexual transmission? Can you prove you got HIV from someone? Can you prove HIV will give you AIDS?

etc etc

As for the disease causes disease Gaffe, obviously I meant disease pathogen. Apologies.
 
Note: HIV is my field of research.

How very cool. Treatment research? Or can you say? The Idiopathic Environmental Intolerance link was interesting. Could spawn an entire topic from that.

Often, a patient is misdiagnosed, for example. Like the HTLV patients mentioned above. I have not been able to locate an actual example of a testable AIDS patient who is HIV-. These anecdotes appear to be apocryphal.

By definition, if you have AIDS symptoms, but test negative, you no longer have AIDS. It is a tautology.
 
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By definition, if you have AIDS symptoms, but test negative, you no longer have AIDS. It is a tautology.

Give one example of this. People are often tested if and when they feel they are at risk (like after a rape). This is BEFORE any symptoms, and as a precaution.

I know not of any single case where someone has AIDS symptoms but were told they don't have it just because of some negative test. This is a flimsy strawman argument, and goes to show how open you are to actual information.

Do you have any idea what RNA is yet?
 
Originally Posted by skeptigirl
I repeat, there is NO DEBATE about HIV causing AIDS among any credible scientists.


Rather than just accepting what somebody says, I looked at some data, read a lot of stuff. That statement is simply false, based on overwhelming evidence. The fact is, credible scientist and researchers are just the people who debate HIV causing AIDS, as well as the multitude of issues around it. That the debate is not represented, or dismissed, is not the same as it not existing.

Well, to some people it is. If they can't see it, it doesn't exist.
1) Note bold text.

2) Consider re-joining the real world. It might come in handy the next time you need medical care.
 
This is an interesting point. I remember well the reaction to the first research on Helicobacter pylori. It was greeted with skepticism, denial, and ridicule. The case had been closed on peptic ulcers, and heretics were not welcome.


http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-11/bacteria.html

Kimball C. Atwood IV then goes on to debunk the allegation that "they were ridiculed by the medical establishment. I recall my colleagues, and even my own physician-husband, scoffing at the idea of peptic ulcers being an infectious disease."
You are comparing a new discovery which was slow to find acceptance to an infectious disease organism we are researching, following the epidemiology trail of, and developing treatment for, much of which is based on analysis of its genome.

That's a pretty big difference. Do you have no capacity to see why?
 

Rather than check these, how about you tell us which ones debate the fact HIV causes AIDS. Because the first three I looked at, (medscape, tulane, cdc), said the opposite.
 
skeptigirl: And that White house org link also connected HIV with AIDS rather clearly, talking about "Hiv/AIDS" all the time instead of keeping them separated. And clicking around some more, the Office of National AIDS Program showed nothing that even implied they opposed this connection. Just to put in a fourth random click on the list.
 
A person must be incredibly ignorant to ignore the mountain of evidence that was not only presented here, but linked to and explained.
*head hitting wall*
They've learned some of the language of critical thinking, they just haven't learned what it means or how to actually do it.
 
...Note this study -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2443528&dopt=Abstract


Or, http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/224/4648/497

There are hundreds more studies like that. Thousands actually. When you say HTLV, what do you mean? HTLV-1 doesn't cause immune problems, it causes cancer. (sometimes). HTLV-II isn't known to cause anything yet. HTLV-III is now called HIV, and HTLV-IV is a complete unknown, except to some current researchers. So what HTLV did they have?
Those two citations are from 1987 and 1984 respectively. Do you suppose we might have added to our body of research on HIV since that time?

Why do some Doctors (and skeptics) not believe in Fibromyalgia Syndrome, FMS) Multiple chemical sensitivities (MCS), Gulf War syndrome (GWS), Post-polio syndrome or Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)?
Because there hasn't been sufficient evidence discovered in research yet for these completely separate issues.

Bacterial infections suffer the same questions. Why do some people get sick and others don't? Why do some people have an agent always in them, but never get sick? Why does exposure to HTLV not cause illness?

And why do people with AIDS not have HIV?
Incubation period, genetic differences in the host (that would be the people) and anti-retroviral drugs.
 

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