Do fundamentalist Mormans abuse children?

[Tricky]

(I can't find another thread on this, which is surprising, but if I'm wrong, feel free to merge, mods.)

Just your average Texas story. Fundamentalist polygamist Church of Latter Day Saints church forces teenage girls into marriage. Girl squeals. Feds bust in. Children removed.

No violence so far, and hopefully it will remain that way.

The state has taken legal, temporary custody of 401 children from a polygamist compound in nearby Schleicher County, a child welfare official said today, citing allegations of abuse and that the children were at risk of harm.
***
Officials still haven't found the 16-year-old girl whose abuse complaint triggered the massive raid.
***
While mainstream Mormons disavowed polygamy more than a century ago, the sect, led by the now imprisoned Warren Jeffs, believes in plural, arranged marriages that often involve teenage girls and older men.

Even if this ends without serious incident, one has to wonder why we let religions get away with the kinds of child manipulating that would land a child pornographer in prison for many years.

 

[nightwind]

Well, just on the face of it, this looks just like another witch hunt and gross over reaction by the state. Of course the media loves it because it has the phrase "sex abuse" involved. Authorites always seem to like to throw that around anytime they want to take what probably amount to illegal actions on their part. Kinda reminds me of the ridiculous daycare abuse witchunts of the past.

These are just religious extremist and the state freaks out. Lucky it wasn't another slaughter.

I listened to the news on this, and it seemed kinda ridiculous. They couldn't find the person who supposedly cried abuse. Oh hum. It was thought someone had been abused. Oh hum. It was thought there was some kind of potential for future abuse. Oh hum. Oh really? Give me a friggin break.

I saw the people walking out, and at first impression I will say baloney. And I have not seen any evidence of any kind of abuse put forward so far.

These people are off doing what they want to do. And yes, they are religious extremist. But so what?

This I feel will just turn out to be a bunch of nothing. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have that feeling.

 

[Tricky]

If they really are forcing teenagers into marriage with old men, then I'm kinda okay with the state "freaking out". They obviously haven't sent in the storm troopers or anything and there seems to be cooperation. I hope nothing bad comes of it, but I could stand for something good to come of it, like the state shutting down religions that force children into marriage. I realize that my morality may be different from theirs, but I think most people would agree that this is wrong.

 

[Darth Rotor]

If they really are forcing teenagers into marriage with old men, then I'm kinda okay with the state "freaking out". They obviously haven't sent in the storm troopers or anything and there seems to be cooperation. I hope nothing bad comes of it, but I could stand for something good to come of it, like the state shutting down religions that force children into marriage. I realize that my morality may be different from theirs, but I think most people would agree that this is wrong.

Age of consent a few decades ago was 14 in some states. According to a discussion here last year, it was not so long ago 14 in Canada.

How is this event different from what went on with Koresh?

The Mormons chose not to fight for their right to be weird. Also, the cops did a bit better recon than the ATF did.

DR

 

[Kopji]

The age of consent was 14 in Texas till 2005 when they raised it to 16.

Palmer said Barlow has been located in another state and that he is wanted on a charge of sexual assault of a child, a second-degree felony.

Barlow's probation officer told The Salt Lake Tribune that he was in Arizona.

"He said the authorities had called him (in Colorado City, Ariz.) and some girl had accused him of assaulting her and he didn't even know who she was," said Bill Loader, a probation officer in Arizona.

Not a promising start.

The photos posted on MSNBC all had busses with the words FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH on the front and sides carrying off the children. Whatever else I might think about the toxicity of cult-like groups, that seems a rather stupid message to send to a group that is certainly already paranoid (is it paranoid if they are there carrying off your children in busses that say FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH?)

I don't see anything here that makes me think Texas has gotten any smarter since Waco. Prediction: Texas will end up being embarrassed and returning almost everyone with an apology.

On the other hand, what could FLDS have possibly been thinking by moving to Texas, home of the Branch Davidian debacle?

 

[Puppycow]

Well, just on the face of it, this looks just like another witch hunt and gross over reaction by the state. Of course the media loves it because it has the phrase "sex abuse" involved. Authorites always seem to like to throw that around anytime they want to take what probably amount to illegal actions on their part. Kinda reminds me of the ridiculous daycare abuse witchunts of the past.

These are just religious extremist and the state freaks out. Lucky it wasn't another slaughter.

I listened to the news on this, and it seemed kinda ridiculous. They couldn't find the person who supposedly cried abuse. Oh hum. It was thought someone had been abused. Oh hum. It was thought there was some kind of potential for future abuse. Oh hum. Oh really? Give me a friggin break.

I saw the people walking out, and at first impression I will say baloney. And I have not seen any evidence of any kind of abuse put forward so far.

These people are off doing what they want to do. And yes, they are religious extremist. But so what?

This I feel will just turn out to be a bunch of nothing. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have that feeling.

I listened to an interview on NPR with Carolyn Jessop, author of Escape, and if half of what she's saying is true, I believe it is abuse.
The women and children are literally held in captivity, as well as brainwashed.

 

[Kestrel]

If they really are forcing teenagers into marriage with old men, then I'm kinda okay with the state "freaking out". They obviously haven't sent in the storm troopers or anything and there seems to be cooperation. I hope nothing bad comes of it, but I could stand for something good to come of it, like the state shutting down religions that force children into marriage. I realize that my morality may be different from theirs, but I think most people would agree that this is wrong.

I knew a gal that grew up in this sect. She ran away after discovering that she had been promised to a 50 year old rancher as his third wife. This allowed her to live the life of a normal 16 year old suburban high school kid.

The sect is also abusive to boys. Most of them are driven out of the community for minor infractions. This frees up young girls so the old guys can have a second or third wife.

 

[Kopji]

It would help convince me that they all mean well - the day I see the Mormon Church bus showing up to rescue the kids attending 'Jesus Camp' and everyone is cool with it.

ODESSA, Texas (AP) - A local church has given $145,000 to the Odessa Police Department to distributed among "underpaid" officers.

The Rev. Don Caywood of Odessa Christian Faith Center handed the money over to police Chief Chris Pipes at a Sunday service. The department will distribute $1,000 checks to 145 employees.

"It became obvious our men and women in blue are underpaid," Caywood told the congregation during the service....

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2008/Jan/20080119Feat002.asp

When the lines between religion and state blur this much I don't have a great deal of confidence that their motivation is unbiased.

 

[RandFan]

Yes, I think they do.

 

[skeptifem]

These people are off doing what they want to do. And yes, they are religious extremist. But so what?

i dont think that the younger wives in this situation have much of a choice in the matter. so no, its not just people doing what they want to do. its a minority of people doing what they want at the expense of everyone else.

it seemed like you were dismissing 50 year old men having sex with underaged girls as not being sexual abuse. am i correct in getting that impression from your post?

 

[RandFan]

These people are off doing what they want to do. And yes, they are religious extremist. But so what?

Is there anything that is out of bounds for religious extremists? If some old guy wants to force a 13 year old girl to have sex with him then why is that anyone's business, right?

 

[Puppycow]

When the lines between religion and state blur this much I don't have a great deal of confidence that their motivation is unbiased.

That's troubling. I'm worried about a quid-pro-quo if a church supplements police officers' salaries. However, I think this is a separate issue from whether this particular sect abuses children.

 

[nightwind]

I still say there is a strong possibility when all is said and done, the biggest abuser here will be the state, CPS, etc.

I've seen it before. We shall see I guess.

And if anyone hasn't been abused, I am sure CPS will get right to work helping them to "recover" the memories. Ha.

At least they didn't kill them all and then try to justify it by saying they heard someone was being abused.

 

[The Painter]

Officials still haven't found the 16-year-old girl whose abuse complaint triggered the massive raid.

One teenager calls and this is how they react??? One teenager calls in New York City and child services doesn't show up for a month.

Something else was going on here. I don't trust the government in these situations at all. Last time they tried to save the children in a Texas compound, they burned them to death.

 

[fuelair]

One teenager calls and this is how they react??? One teenager calls in New York City and child services doesn't show up for a month.

Something else was going on here. I don't trust the government in these situations at all. Last time they tried to save the children in a Texas compound, they burned them to death.

No, the BDAH's burned them to death by refusing to follow legal instuctions. Their choice, their bad.

 

[Puppycow]

One teenager calls and this is how they react??? One teenager calls in New York City and child services doesn't show up for a month.

Something else was going on here. I don't trust the government in these situations at all. Last time they tried to save the children in a Texas compound, they burned them to death.

IIRC it was Davidians that drew first blood.

 

[BPSCG]

I just saw this on the news this am. I think we should invoke the 48-hour rule - sounds awful from the first reports, but there seems to be a lot we don't know yet.

 

[Tricky]

I just saw this on the news this am. I think we should invoke the 48-hour rule - sounds awful from the first reports, but there seems to be a lot we don't know yet.

It must be just now hitting the national news cycles. It's been in the papers for about three days here. Workers are saying that it is pretty certain that there has been massive abuse to hundreds of children.

The state has taken temporary custody of 401 children from the religious compound in nearby Schleicher County, a child welfare official said Monday, adding that Texas officials believe that all of them either have been abused or were at risk of harm.

To their credit, the FLDS believers didn't resist and cause another tragedy like at Waco. That doesn't absolve them of blame.

And the "age of consent" thing is just a red herring. Being forced (or brainwashed) into marriage at any age is wrong in my playbook.

 

[Leicontis]

From all the reports I hear of sects like this, women are effectively slaves - their father has absolute control over their life until they are married to whatever older man they've been promised to (no say for them in the matter), at which point their husband has absolute control over their life. Their purpose is pretty much to do the housework, be the husband's sex doll, and pump out babies. Even if their actions seem consentual, you have to remember that this is the only life they know - they're often not allowed to find out that in the big world outside, women have rights.

 

[Kaylee]

(I can't find another thread on this, which is surprising, but if I'm wrong, feel free to merge, mods.)

Just your average Texas story. Fundamentalist polygamist Church of Latter Day Saints church forces teenage girls into marriage. Girl squeals. Feds bust in. Children removed.

No violence so far, and hopefully it will remain that way.

Even if this ends without serious incident, one has to wonder why we let religions get away with the kinds of child manipulating that would land a child pornographer in prison for many years.

Oh, without question, I think that forcing children to marry is a form of child abuse. Based on some of the reports I've read, many of them (both boys and girls) are given sub standard education only up to the age of 13 or so. Many boys are kicked out of the community, poorly educated and equipped to deal with adult responsibilities and fend for themselves, so that older men can more easily continue to have illegal polygamous marrirages. (I just don't recall how many of the boys are kicked out of the community before the age of 18. Even if they are kicked out after 18, I think its a shameful practice.)

Flora Jessop, a woman who has escaped from polygamy, has reported that the practice and implementation of polygamy has the side effect of increasing the likelihood of making the home an abusive place for both children and women -- and that other forms of sexual abuse on children besides forced marriage is widespread also.

All of these are forms of abuse.

I started a thread that deals with the political aspects of this problem in the 2008 USA Presidential Elections sub forum:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3600099#post3600099

I don’t think the threads should be combined, but for anyone interested in the political aspects of this problem, you may want to take a look at that thread also.