do creationists know they are losing or not

You went to the desert without spare water?

No. I was cut off from my spare water, due to a combination of fluke chances. It was one of those one-in-a-million things, and no, I'm not going into details. I merely mentioned it because that's when I felt the most awe towards the desert I love--when I was utterly at its mercy, without any of the trappings of civilization that most take for granted. I am fully capable of feeling awe. I simply express it differently than most.

Dinosaurs do not disprove God to me still.
~sigh~ Please watch the video I posted, and stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said anything about anything disproving any deity, and in fact presented an argument that specifically states that the notion that evolution disproves gods is a flaw that only Creationists accept (even Dawkins doesn't say that evolution disproves God--he merely says that it makes God unnecessary). You've got a chip on your shoulder and you're viewing my posts through its lens. That's hardly fair--I'm only responsible for what *I* say and do, not what others say or do.

All might have been created, or evolved, we don't know.
YOU don't know. I don't share your ignorance of the history of life. In fact, I know a fair bit about the evolution of coral reefs. I studied one of three known Paleocene coral reefs in grad school.

But I believe your dinosaur finds can be millions of years old and Christians don't commonly agree to that notion.
This shows your ignorance of paleontology and vertebrate anatomy. Dinosaurs don't have cannon bones.

I mention this because frankly, if you don't know this (and it's not that uncommon as far as knowledge goes) how can we trust your interpretation of hominid remains? I mean, the entire hominid lineage reconstruction is based on osteology--meaning that people who study hominids are supposed to know that cannon bones are mammalian (artiodactylian, in fact). Please understand, I'm not saying that this error invalidates everything you've said--I'm merely saying that it calls your ability to interpret the data into question, and that it may behoove you to demonstrate your ability to interpret the data in more detail.

And in counter offer, you've never seen 16 genera of mixed scleractinian coral being grown in an aquaculture microenvironment
Don't presume to know what I've seen and what I haven't. I may have seen this, I may not have--at this point, you simply don't know.

I only say this because your habit of saying what I do and don't know, what I have and haven't said, and what I have and haven't earned is getting extremely tiresome. I'm asking you, as politely as I can, once again, to stop.

To set the record straight, I'd love to see such a display as you describe, but it's in part because it'd bring back fond memories (specifically, of the woman I was after before I met my wife--I used to go to the biology aquariums and help with the feeding to be alone with her). (As an aside, any college students should note that this is NOT a good idea--octopi feeding is not exactly conducive to amorous activities. Personally, I'd recommend helping a geologist with an x-ray defractometry experiment, since those take longer and you've got to wait for them to finish, which means you've got a fair bit of time to kill...)

so even the lowlifes have something to offer ya
I once saw a tenured professor, former president of the Paleo Society, ask a fireman with no formal training in paleontology his opinion on a fossil. I myself have contacted several amateur paleontologists regarding fossil sites and fossil taxa. I often talk to people without even the lofty rank of "amateur"--people who simply have found cool rocks for their kids. My science is one where amateurs can become equal to professionals, IF they are willing to put forth the effort. It's that caveat that most Creationists forget.

My point in providing you with a brief sketch of my professional biography was that you seem to have the impression that I'm some yahoo that doesn't know what he's talking about. That's not the case. Further, I wanted to establish that what you say about paleontology (it's not paleoscience, by the way--or at least, I've never heard it called that) you say about me, personally. I've found that people are often willing to make extremely harsh generalizations about fields of research, but are unwilling or unable to substantiate those statements when presented with specific instances for consideration. Finally, you have an annoying tendency to put words in my mouth. I want to put the facts straight. I've made my choices, and am willing to be praised or damned for them--but I'm not willing to accept adulations or condemnations for what I haven't said or done.

If we werent having a pissing contest id be mega interested in seeing pictures of ancient coral skeletons/any stromatolites you've found in strange places.
We're not. You've thus far evaded every direct challenge I've made to your generalized statements (except for the dinosaur cannon bone thing, which you got wrong). Puts you in a rather precarious position--I'm tempted to say you fall short, but doubt that the pun would be appreciated.

As for stromatolites, the strangest place I've encountered references to them (they're not a common feature in the Pleistocene of the Desert Southwest, or of Tethes during the K/Pg extinction) is the Anzo-Borego Desert. Not exactly a place you'd expect to find them, but certainly not an uncommon occurrence where you find surface water. Really bizarre, considering A-B is, well, a desert.
 
You went to the desert without spare water?

Dinosaurs do not disprove God to me still. I find coral just as fascinating as you find your treasures. All might have been created, or evolved, we don't know. But I believe your dinosaur finds can be millions of years old and Christians don't commonly agree to that notion. I see no reason God couldn't have started billions of years ago and we misread the timeline as a crappy five thousand years.

It is more problematic than genealogies for many U.S. evangelicals like Ken Ham and the Hovinds. They argue that the Bible says there was no death on earth before the fall of Adam and Eve which precludes dinosaurs or any other fossilized creatures living and dying before man existed. They then absurdly ascribe the fossil record to the Flood.
 
Either you guys exceeded your bedtime (TX 1:35 am) or there is a mult Kb retort in the works...time to check my eyelids but you got my attention first thing in am.
I live in a different time zone than you, obviously.

In closing, you confused awe with consequence on the whole stuck out in the desert thing but im guilty of similar impulse at times as well.
No, you simply misinterpreted my statement. I felt, in addition to gut-wrenching fear, a sense of awe that I only previously experienced when I was religious. Only difference was, this time I understood the system I was dealing with.

Take one minute in between jabs to tell me about coral finds and let me see a pic of million year old septal structures pls if you have any. Not off google pics, something you beheld if that ever came up in your find.

No. First off, I'm not sure how to upload pictures. Second, I'd have to find the things--it's been years since I've looked at them, and the computer I used to use has died. Third, the corals were a minor aspect of my research--I was focused on the decapods, and only looked at the corals because I had to make acetate peals anyway, and if you have to do something in grad school you may as well kill multiple avians with one cobble. Fourth, the Paleocene reefs are notriously deformed--it's a function of the mass extinction, they went through a period where loss exceeded deposition, and then got up-thrust when Africa slammed into Europe (repeatedly, and it continues to do so today)--so they wouldn't be very good anyway. Finally, and least significantly, given the number of times you've inserted words into my arguments without my consent, I'm not exactly willing to put forth much effort on doing you favors.

You did all that and haven't osmosed a PhD id feel slighted on paper.
I don't. I've got the job I've wanted since I was 5. I'm certainly not going to complain that I don't have a piece of paper. I'm an Objectivist--I'd rather be able to do the work than have the paperwork.
 
Ok I'm still up to lol but seriously I'm turning in now just for like 4 hours worth.

You mentioned something a few pages ago D about people who don't share their evidences yet you leave us hanging and provide too much compensatory type detail about the desert/water thing. For this and for picking up on my history channel thing I am thankful, I want the goods, the details, the whys and hows. This pales in comparison to the unpreparedness of a lone creationist rubbing elbows with you boys.

Additionally:
I skimmed your post and got to the part where you captioned my words and leaped -shockingly- to the conclusion a fish geek wouldnt know about hollow bones/osteological matrices etc

You are itching to probe with paleo type man geeze I get it :)

and you are right I don't delve into bone structure of dinosaurs other than some verbiage I recall from a lacking recollection of why archaeopteryx proves birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Now I'm not pretending to know what's going on in your mind, I'm near certain.

Good nite and seriously thank you I can't possibly imagine where this will lead tomorrow.
 
Edit: short detour from the fray for quick biochat

Page 3 thank you for asking DinW. If you had some pics I was going to count little structural ridges if that detail was available and compare it to modern cousins to see if numerical counts changed, I'm sure the comparisons are already online/published but just once I thought it would be be neat to see it myself from a guy who pried it up from the depths.

Article of mine for pico reef invention involving stony coral in synthetic saltwater:
On google 'the history of pico reef biology'
 

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What do you have to say on the microenvironment? I'm curious because (A) I studied algae and micro-environment is a big deal for aquaculture and (B) maybe you have bait to switch and I want to see you do it =)
 
Pro that's cool you do that man. I kick up my aquarium thread on page 3 annually to reel in anyone who chats aquatic biology in any way. Its rare here.

The fact we will soon extract mass biofuel off algae is bees knees to me, my current interest is coral allelopathic studies in any hyperconcentrated environment and using oxidative destruction (h2o2) to reverse coral reef eutrophication.

Now for what I do for a living: sell cable. Tear/rip/shred away lol
 
I make no money off my science but when you read about pico reefs on the internet, that's my invention, the technique for growing mixed coral and algal ecosystems in one gallon or less total water volume to observe mechanisms of coral adaptivity.




To say I have a fixation with miniature reef aquariums is a fn understatement :) like saying Indie up there can't give us a damn good explanation why a t Rex has nubs for arms. I'm just joshin man.
 
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Pro that's cool you do that man. I kick up my aquarium thread on page 3 annually to reel in anyone who chats aquatic biology in any way. Its rare here.

The fact we will soon extract mass biofuel off algae is bees knees to me, my current interest is coral allelopathic studies in any hyperconcentrated environment and using oxidative destruction (h2o2) to reverse coral reef eutrophication.

Now for what I do for a living: sell cable. Tear/rip/shred away lol

Ah my undergraduate research was on nutrient delivery to sea urchin larvae for aquaculture to reduce cannibalism. However I mainly studied algae because that's the preferred food source for aquaculture.

Now I finished a preliminary study on miRNA and am trying to get into dental school.

I am interested in algae for biofuel but I have severe reservations to it from an economical standpoint. We'll see where it goes.

Also I thought that the Trex arms were for standing and uprighting themselves, and may have been useful in juveniles. I dunno, but Dinwar's a good start to ask.
 
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You mentioned something a few pages ago D about people who don't share their evidences yet you leave us hanging and provide too much compensatory type detail about the desert/water thing. For this and for picking up on my history channel thing I am thankful, I want the goods, the details, the whys and hows.
There's a difference. I don't give a rat's behind whether you believe it happened to me or not, and I'm not using it as any argument. It was merely the setting, a situation in which your statement that I don't feel awe was falsified.

I skimmed your post and got to the part where you captioned my words and leaped -shockingly- to the conclusion a fish geek wouldnt know about hollow bones/osteological matrices etc
I didn't leap to any conclusions. I pointed out a rather major flaw in your statement, and stated the most reasonable explanation. There's a difference. I said "cannon bone" and you concluded that I'd found a dinosaur. This is akin to me saying "two shells" and you concluding that I'd found a snail.

The hollow bone thing merely adds weight to my conclusion that you don't know about osteology. A cannon bone isn't hollow. Technically speaking it's not even a bone--it's TWO bones (specifically metatarsles) fused together. http://www.mnh.si.edu/mna/image_info.cfm?species_id=7 There's a link to a picture of one (towards the bottom of the page--if I recall correctly that one's from Vaughan et al.'s "Mammalogy").

I don't expect someone into corals to know mammal osteology. My point was twofold: First, I wanted to provide a concrete example of some data about the past for you to critique--I've found that most people who say we can't know about the past haven't actually encountered data on the past, and I wanted to see if your statement could stand in the face of an actual find. Second, I wanted to see how far out of your depth you were when you said that there's insufficient evidence to map human evolution. Our knowledge of human evolution is based on DNA evidence and bones. If you don't know bones, frankly you don't know human evolution (DNA is great, far as it goes, but it doesn't show the lost side branches, while the bones do). I'm not doing this to point and laugh, either. I'm illustrating a specific weakness in your argument, so that you can address it. If you have data that our understanding of human evolution is flawed I, and all of paleontology and anthropology, would love to see it--honestly, it'd be the greatest thing to happen in our science for a while (and recent studies of dinosaurs suggest possible avenues of criticism). But you've got to understand the data before you can critique it.

Now I'm not pretending to know what's going on in your mind, I'm near certain.
I'm curious to see what you think is going on in my mind. Few people who've said that have been right.

If you had some pics I was going to count little structural ridges if that detail was available and compare it to modern cousins to see if numerical counts changed, I'm sure the comparisons are already online/published but just once I thought it would be be neat to see it myself from a guy who pried it up from the depths.
It has. Problem is, the rocks I had to work with weren't from the part of the formation that had the pretty corals. The ones I saw were extremely beat up--to the point where you can't really state with any confidence the number of septa (I saw a few cross-sections, but where they were in the coral and how much dissolution occurred are things I simply can't say--a few coral cross sections in isolation in a massive limestone doesn't exactly inspire a great deal of confidence). It's partially due to the whole deposition/loss balance thing (the reef crossed the K/Pg boundary, but underwent a depositional hiatus because of numerous issues, including dissolution of the coral skeletons themselves, the coral being eaten by other critters, etc), and partially due to the fact that what was a shallow fringing reef is now a hilltop a few thousand feet in the air. I think some hydrothermal alteration was at work as well.

If you're interested in ancient coral research, I'd recommend joining Academia.edu. A lot of people put papers online there for free, to facilitate research. And despite the name it's open to all researchers, including people outside of academia, amateurs, and people who just want to find one or two papers on specific subjects (that's how I got hooked on the website). And it's one of those sites where once you start using it you find all kinds of reasons to KEEP using it--like I said, I joined it to download a few papers, but I've also been able to contact an Israely expert on thermoluminescense dating to discuss proper sample preparations. It's a great way to get a feel for any area of research.
 
Not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're saying that you think what's going through my mind is Sheldon Cooper, you're entirely wrong. Geology doesn't do nice things to people as stupid as Sheldon.
 
Not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're saying that you think what's going through my mind is Sheldon Cooper, you're entirely wrong. Geology doesn't do nice things to people as stupid as Sheldon.

Geologists all have volcano lairs?
 
Lowpro said:
Geologists all have volcano lairs?
Sadly, no. :( What we DO have is rock hammers, though. I have both a pointy-ended one and a chisel-ended one. We also have lots and lots and lots of practice at maximizing the damage done by the rock hammers. And we spend a lot of time out in the middle of nowhere. Not exactly conditions in which Sheldon Cooper would fair well....
 
Although I didn't mention birth control before, it is very important for my predictions.

Intelligent, educated women(and men) are far more likely to use birth control than their reckless, uneducated counterparts. This wasn't available for over 99% of human history.

Fertility control has always been available (the "better classes" have commonly had smaller family sizes than the poor), and concern that the great unwashed are outbreeding the "better classes" is nothing new either. And yet here we are, way beyond the Enlightenment.

There's nothing very special about what we're seeing now. Religiosity ebbs and flows in the zeitgeist but science, technology and secular rationality just keep advancing. The reason is, to my mind, that the latter work, but the former doesn't. Antibiotics drive out exorcists. The Maxim gun makes short work of the Mahdi Charge.

Even in the US the most vocally Christian politicians are socially repellant to most people born after 1980 or so, and to many born before. Religiosity is an indulgence of comfortable times, but after the party practical matters come to the fore. It is once more about the economy, people :). Keeping a job, keeping a home, keeping a family - and what kind of future will the kids have? Heaven can wait, and as for jihad - how much does it pay?

We've had thirty years of increasing religiosity, and the real damage has been done by an old-time financial bubble bursting.
 
I feel the exact same way as you. Religion will be the undoing of us all, as it inevitably leads us right back to the Dark Ages.

An opinion which has often been expressed ever since the Enlightenment and yet here we are. If it's inevitable it's taking its time proving it.

In ten years time we'll look back on all this concern with religion and have a big laugh about it. Even the US has had Reagan and Bush Jnr and the Religious Right (I first knew them as the Moral Majority) has gained nothing. That's one solid Constitution the Founding Fathers built against this specific threat. They had their priorities right, in my opinion.

They could have done more to restrict the plebs' influence on rational government, but they nailed religion.
 
Meanwhile, some of the great minds of the time were suppressed. Galileo, for instance. And they were suppressed by-yep, religion. The learning was suppressed.

In practice it wasn't. The Vatican's writ was purely theoretical in most of Europe by that time, and Galileo didn't break much new ground. Like most contemporary thinkers, experimenters and instrument-makers he received more than he contributed. Galileo deserves to be recognised, there's no doubt, but the Vatican's paper prohibition has perhaps promoted him a little beyond his dues.

(Carl Sagan, on the other hand, is a hero and I will hear no word said against him :).)

The take-away message for me, from that time, is that where the Catholic power survived (Italy and Spain, essentially) there was stagnation while the rest of Europe made and embraced the future.
 
An opinion which has often been expressed ever since the Enlightenment and yet here we are. If it's inevitable it's taking its time proving it.

In ten years time we'll look back on all this concern with religion and have a big laugh about it...

I wish I could share your cavalier attitude, but bear in mind that back in the days of the Enlightenment, through most of the 20th century, religious fanatics (which include the leaders in several Muslim nations) haven't had the ability to kill millions with nuclear weapons. We are on the threshold of that time right now, and if a nation such as Iran gets nukes, tell me again how we'll all be laughing in 10 years.
 

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