do creationists know they are losing or not

Wowbagger said:
(Of course, in actual science, the trend is a very sharp cliff: Influence of creationism fell off of it ages ago.)
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Creationism was left behind the moment people started wondering about fossils, why there were so many species arranged in a clearly systematic way, and other related subjects. The moment you think about something honestly, faith has gone out the window.

Science and technology have been on a consistent upward path since prehistoric times, because they are built on what's known, tested and useful. Religion hit its peak a long time ago. While science has the scientific method and technology has the "what's its military application?" test, religion has theology. My case is, I think, made.

The public perception of scientists or clerics at any particular time is a different matter, of course. People tend not to notice the accumulated science behind much of what they find normal while liking the religious message that they're central to the Universe and don't have to die.
 
keale said:
I was doing carpets for a short period and over heard this lady talking with here daughter who was selecting classes to take since she was a biology major and she blew a fuse when she saw that evolutionary biology is a class her daughter needed to take. She told her "you will not take that class!!!! evolution is a lie!!!"
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The big question is : how did that affect the would-be scientist's attitude to religion? She may have been sadly constrained by parental power at that point, but the resentment and blame is likely to be directed at an unloved religion, not a loved parent. Even if she took the class anyway and lied about it :).
 
CapelDodger said:
The big question is : how did that affect the would-be scientist's attitude to religion? She may have been sadly constrained by parental power at that point, but the resentment and blame is likely to be directed at an unloved religion, not a loved parent. Even if she took the class anyway and lied about it :).
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No idea but even if she lied about it she would still be coming home with the evolutionary biology 101 text books so theres that.

Still ive heard this comment "I dont believe in evolution" far more often than I ever expected.
 
Im a Christian and enjoy discussing science among people who believe and don't believe. The older I get the more I am entertained by watching both sides convince themselves they have all the answers and the other is lost/uninformed. it is not different watching political debates.
Because there's no way of connecting the two opposing views supposedly...you are a heretic for pondering evolution and a fool for pondering a creator so big comprehension/quantification/qualification is impossible. Circular forever

The way to rectify the shortcomings of both sides is simple for me. It was recently best summarized when googling for sheer entertainment 'top ten best photographs of all time'

The blue dot photo was one of the submissions, where Viking took the picture of earth from a zillion miles away and beamed it back and its one pixel to set the perspective.

none of us know crap on the big scale.


We digest what bits of info we can, find groups of people who think accordingly, group together and reinforce.

Its all very neat psychology imo. I am totally comfortable around non believers and understand the rationale quite well, it doesn't make me judge. My views could be totally wrong I realize this. So might your interpretation of a higgs boson
No evolutionist I've met was that humble, they are far too smart/gifted to be wrong. I know you've seen the same from believers.

I keep finding proof of God repeatedly not having looked for it, so my path unfurls accordingly, its my universe
if we both make science discoveries and get along who cares about philosophical battles...its not that important in either scheme, at least not to me.

Im sorry to have mentioned Christianity and psychology in the middle of your black panther party :)
B
 
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PS the video was simply to slow in pace for me to tolerate past 30 seconds, forest Gump on its infinite Tbs loop is more entraining
 
el zone said:
I keep finding proof of God repeatedly not having looked for it, so my path unfurls accordingly, its my universe
if we both make science discoveries and get along who cares about philosophical battles...its not that important in either scheme, at least not to me.
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That's a really interesting way to put it. You don't find evidence, you find proof. Could you give one or two example of such a proof.
 
SezMe said:
That's a really interesting way to put it. You don't find evidence, you find proof. Could you give one or two example of such a proof.
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Coincidences that are too coincidental to be coincidences I'll bet.
 
Its subjective, why bother. It doesn't interest me to try and sell you on it... You guys base your evolution on knowledge/understanding of genetics which in 200 years will appear rudimentary and you will just be selling another modified version.

And so will we

I've come to the conclusion its a waste of time to partake in the game, focus all energy on something better, what that should be varies with each decade I pile on

truly we don't know crap, but I speak a little coral science and you speak a little vertebrate biology and as long as you can play a rock/metal instrument we just might be kindred regardless of philosophy
 
To watch how you deal with it, wasn't as explosive as you thought. I think if there isn't two holier than thou persons trading quips the topic kinda fizzles out...plus how fun really is an anti creationist thread if its only evolutionists inside-there's no spice. Wanted to see how it would work if a believer wasn't trying to proselytize and still trade some ideas.
 
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No, the creationists are going to win some day. Their fertility rate almost guarantees it. The fertility rate among fundamentalists of all religions is higher than that of religious moderates and secularists. While some children of fundamentalists may become evolutionists or even atheists, I doubt it would make a significant difference in the long-run. The Christian fundamentalist Duggar Family(19 children!) is an extreme example of this trend.

Another thing that works in traditional religion's favor is that the stupid/uneducated are outbreeding the intelligent. College educated women tend to have fewer children than women who are high school drop-outs or have only a high school education. Modern medicine and the welfare state also help ensure the reproductive success of the less intelligent; they aren't weeded out of the gene pool like they used to be. It requires a certain level of intelligence to understand and accept science, in my opinion.

In Israel, secular Jews are are increasingly worried over getting displaced by Orthodox Jews, due to the Orthodox Jews much higher fertility rate. This is something that could happen all over the western world as Christian, Jewish and Muslim Duggar-type families achieve a majority due to reproductive success and immigration from more religious countries. The growth of atheism and secularism over the past several decades is a near statistical blip that will soon be reversed.

Faith Equals Fertility
 
At the rate new theories and understanding displaces old knowledge I have to take pretty much anything sold to me as subjective at the time of the deal...that's a trip about fertility heh not all of of them are uneducated some were dang good c students
 
el zone said:
Its subjective, why bother. It doesn't interest me to try and sell you on it... You guys base your evolution on knowledge/understanding of genetics which in 200 years will appear rudimentary and you will just be selling another modified version.

And so will we

I've come to the conclusion its a waste of time to partake in the game, focus all energy on something better, what that should be varies with each decade I pile on

truly we don't know crap, but I speak a little coral science and you speak a little vertebrate biology and as long as you can play a rock/metal instrument we just might be kindred regardless of philosophy
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"When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." — Isaac Asimov.
 
Zelenius said:
No, the creationists are going to win some day. Their fertility rate almost guarantees it. The fertility rate among fundamentalists of all religions is higher than that of religious moderates and secularists. While some children of fundamentalists may become evolutionists or even atheists, I doubt it would make a significant difference in the long-run. The Christian fundamentalist Duggar Family(19 children!) is an extreme example of this trend.

Another thing that works in traditional religion's favor is that the stupid/uneducated are outbreeding the intelligent. College educated women tend to have fewer children than women who are high school drop-outs or have only a high school education. Modern medicine and the welfare state also help ensure the reproductive success of the less intelligent; they aren't weeded out of the gene pool like they used to be. It requires a certain level of intelligence to understand and accept science, in my opinion.

In Israel, secular Jews are are increasingly worried over getting displaced by Orthodox Jews, due to the Orthodox Jews much higher fertility rate. This is something that could happen all over the western world as Christian, Jewish and Muslim Duggar-type families achieve a majority due to reproductive success and immigration from more religious countries. The growth of atheism and secularism over the past several decades is a near statistical blip that will soon be reversed.

Faith Equals Fertility
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I feel the exact same way as you. Religion will be the undoing of us all, as it inevitably leads us right back to the Dark Ages.
 
el zone said:
At the rate new theories and understanding displaces old knowledge I have to take pretty much anything sold to me as subjective at the time of the deal
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Probably a mistake, to be honest. Treat everything with skepticism, certainly, but a big part of skepticism is the value of evidence.
 
el zone said:
I think religion can be your undoing only if you let it, unsubscribe
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I've never subscribed. The problem is the billions of people who do - there's no stopping them from believing whatever woo they choose, yet their beliefs and actions have an effect on those who don't share their beliefs.
 
el zone said:
The older I get the more I am entertained by watching both sides convince themselves they have all the answers and the other is lost/uninformed.
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If science thought it had all the answers, there would be no need for scientists. The beauty of science is that it's always looking for more information. That's why we build telescopes, put rovers on Mars, probe the structure of the atom, and decode the human genome.

Religion, by contrast, assumes that a small group of people who lived 2500 years ago got everything right and there's no need to question it. That's why we get bumper stickers that say "The bible says it. I believe it. That settles it."

Steve S
 
Zelenius said:
No, the creationists are going to win some day. Their fertility rate almost guarantees it. The fertility rate among fundamentalists of all religions is higher than that of religious moderates and secularists. While some children of fundamentalists may become evolutionists or even atheists, I doubt it would make a significant difference in the long-run. The Christian fundamentalist Duggar Family(19 children!) is an extreme example of this trend.
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Except this was always true -- fundamentalists always had more children than religious moderates, and religious moderates more than atheists. And there was time when atheists did not exist. So by your logic, atheists cannot exist. Yet in reality their numbers have been steadily increasing. So something must be wrong with your logic.

The answer to conundrum: "Atheists have fewer children than fundamentalists, and hardly any fundamentalist ever gives up God, so how come the number of atheists in the world has been steadily increasing?" is this: Fundamentalists very rarely give up God entirely, but it is quite common for children of fundamentalist parents to be less rabid about their religion -- and for their children to become agnostic or atheist. So there is in fact a steady conversion from fundamentalism to atheism -- it just takes several generations.

The Amish are not overruning Pennsylvania for the same reason
 
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