"Diversity"

When I went to college I met people from all different backgrounds. I learned alot dealing with such a diverse crowd. Im still friends with many of them. Diversity is a good thing.

Idiotic. White students with high grades get their careers wrecked so you can meet new friends. People like you can/should meet your interesting friends at your own expense and on your own damn time, not on the backs of students who study for 12 years, whose parents might have to scrimp and save to earn enough for tuition, who get high grades and high scores and do what they're supposed to do to get admitted, and then get stopped in their tracks so that you can have interesting friends.
 
Racists are the only people I place permanently on my ignore list.
Bye, Patrick.

Hans
 
Patrick said:
Idiotic. White students with high grades get their careers wrecked so you can meet new friends. People like you can/should meet your interesting friends at your own expense and on your own damn time, not on the backs of students who study for 12 years, whose parents might have to scrimp and save to earn enough for tuition, who get high grades and high scores and do what they're supposed to do to get admitted, and then get stopped in their tracks so that you can have interesting friends.

What cracks me up is that if you try to point out that people from minority backgrounds tend to have bigger hurdles to jump over, hence the concessions in their favour, you get some who say 'if they can't make it, tough! That's competition!'. Yet when Mr White-Cracker doesn't get a high enough test score to make the grade, and has to make do with a lesser college, and hence might have to work a bit harder to get the career they want, the 'competition' argument suddenly grows silent.
 
Oh please....

MRC_Hans said:
Racists are the only people I place permanently on my ignore list.
Bye, Patrick.

Hans

Well that's pretty kneejerky. Ive hardly seen anything from Patrick that indicates he is a racist. I can hardly see how his view point that evaluation of a candidate for entry into a school should be based on academic merit rather than on their ethnic background could be construed as racist. Somehow, being color blind is being racist. Somehow, not making someones sex or orientation or ethnicity a determining factor in your evalution of their worthiness them is being a bigot. Seems very Orwellian to me.
 
MRC_Hans said:
Racists are the only people I place permanently on my ignore list.
Bye, Patrick.

Hans

This is an example of why the term "racist" has ceased to have any meaning. All too often it is applied when a person argues against the prevailing PC position of the day.

Diversity is racism is clothed in a PC suit.

Try reading this interesting take on the matter:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7915&news_iv_ctrl=1076

Incidentially, aside from some feel good but vacuous comments I have not yet heard why diversity is a good thing. Anyone care to explain?
 
I realize that the term Racist is much abused, however, I consider it appropriate in this case.

Hans
 
Re: Oh please....

billydkid said:
Well that's pretty kneejerky. Ive hardly seen anything from Patrick that indicates he is a racist.

"In one ad, has a stunning blonde WF student who looks about like pure icelandic descent, with her arm all cozily around the neck of a BM who looks like he just popped out of the african jungle"

Perhaps this thread may shed some light on Patricks views of race.
 
Ed said:
Incidentially, aside from some feel good but vacuous comments I have not yet heard why diversity is a good thing. Anyone care to explain?

Because we're all stuck on this planet together, and it might be a good idea to try to understand each other? Ever study a foreign language? Did you notice how it made you understand your own language better? Exposure to different beliefs and backgrounds is supposed to inspire examination of one's own beliefs and background. Finding what you have in common and what you differ in with your fellow man (or woman) can have fairly practical applications, as well as all the feel-good niceness of it. Not to mention it's very boring when everyone's too similar.

I think diversity's a good thing....but it has to happen on its own. Admissions weighting, quotas, and affirmative action all have inherent flaws that have been argued for four pages of this thread so far. The question is, is diversity worth pursuing even if the way to create it is unfair? I don't think so.
 
As TM said...diversity is a good thing...but what is the best way to mandate/foster diversity without creating unintended consequences such as those mentioned?

As to why diversity is a good thing, exposure to other cultures, people with different backgrounds, etc. opens the door to possibly widening one's acceptance of such things, and reducing one's preconceived notions...remaining separate would seem to remove such an opportunity.
 
Patrick said:
Well, some people think that being around people from diverse backgrounds is an enriching expirience.

The people who believe that can easily find those experiences on their own time - that a University be allowed to spit on the constitution and deny entrance to students who have merited entrance by their high qualifications, but failed in the correct skin category, just so whoever is left can have such "experiences", is discarding the constitution, unethical, and irrational.

Now that we have shared our opinions, I have one more for you:

The problem with a moral absolutist is that there is no such thing.
 
crimresearch said:
As TM said...diversity is a good thing...but what is the best way to mandate/foster diversity without creating unintended consequences such as those mentioned?

Highlight our similarities rather than our differences?

Emphasis the human race over the black or white "race"?

Live by MLK's ideal of "...by the content of their character"?


I can think of a few ways, but I'm not too sure of their likely success.
 
Ed said:
This is an example of why the term "racist" has ceased to have any meaning. All too often it is applied when a person argues against the prevailing PC position of the day.

Diversity is racism is clothed in a PC suit.
Time to consult M-W.com:

Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Going by the second definition, all those calling these "diversity" policies racist are correct.

But, really, it's the first definition that makes me cringe at the overuse of the word. Much like when shanek and Tony call someone a bigot. Technically they are using it correctly, but I would rather see the word used a little more judiciously.

[/soapbox]

Incidentially, aside from some feel good but vacuous comments I have not yet heard why diversity is a good thing. Anyone care to explain?

I could write a good couple of chapters on why I think it is beneficial. But there would be no proof or backing evidence to go with it, and it would still not indicate a reason to legislate diversity, so I'll spare you.

So in short, where I'm attending law school, I could no doubt have been awarded some merit scholarship(s) had my skin color been different. But the benefits I've enjoyed being a white male all my life kind of preclude any b!tching rights I might otherwise have. But frankly, I do think I and my class will become better attorneys and citizens because of our diverse class. I've been educated in nearly-all-white settings, and in diverse settings. My experience has left me with the clear impression that diversity in an educational setting is a worthwhile goal.

edited for clarity
 
Ed said:
This is an example of why the term "racist" has ceased to have any meaning. All too often it is applied when a person argues against the prevailing PC position of the day.

Diversity is racism is clothed in a PC suit.

Try reading this interesting take on the matter:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7915&news_iv_ctrl=1076

Incidentially, aside from some feel good but vacuous comments I have not yet heard why diversity is a good thing. Anyone care to explain?

I read the article and I can see where the author is coming from. I wonder though if there is a difference between looking at someone's ethnicity and inviting them into your circle is different than looking at someone's ethnicity and wanting to exclude them.

Sure the cause is the same, but the response is different. Instead of shunning this person, you embrace them.

Now the word "racism" might semantically would apply to both of those senarios, but the term has such a negative meaning that I don't think it's right to apply it to both.

Do you? Does anyone?

You, Ed, asked for the value of diversity. Have you ever met any different than yourself?
 
Ed said:

I can't agree with Schwartz's summation:
We need to identify "diversity" for what it is: a malignant policy that harms everyone, because it is the very essence of racism.
(emphasis mine)

Again, it's the 1st definition of racist I'm looking to.

But then, Ed, remember when you called my personal refusal to use the term "cotton-picking" because I thought it might have been born out of American slavery, "the essence of PC?"

I guess we'll just have to continue to see some things differently. :)
 
I guess my big problem with AA and diversity policies, is it often lowers the bar in many areas. Instead of encouraging various ethnicities and peoples to improve themselves and their conditions, we instead lower standards and wave requirements just so they can have 'more equal' proportions of 'success'. When success is redefined by race, I find that racist. When 'requirements' are altered by gender, I find that sexist.

When I was in the Army, I spent 6 years in all-male units; then I was posted to my first co-ed unit. The first thing that got my attention (aside from the one cute girl in PT) was that their physical training standards were lower than ours, but their job requirements were the same. SO while it was OK to say that any soldier wanting to be a mechanic, for example, had to lift a certain amount of weight, the army also saw it as OK to say that women required less strength training than men, and had lower standards to 'pass the test' than men did. Now, I accept that men and women have fundamental physiological differences, but if the job requires lifting 200 lbs, why shouldn't the PT standards also require the same pushups for both genders?

The next thing was when we went to the field. Our usual policy was, once in the field, you stayed. One day, one month, it was all the same - you can't 'take a break' from war, after all. But the females were shipped back every other day for showers, rest, etc. Clearly sexist. Now, I understand certain hygeine problems exist for women - but equal treatment should still be equal treatment - we should have ALL been brought back.

Then there was the barracks situation. Now, I will agree that some segregation of male and female is necessary - and having a guard posted near the female barracks also makes a small amount of sense. But the female barracks were soon decorated (with company funds), their showers had curtains (ours did not), they received extra washers and dryers of their own (OK, I can see why, but still!)...

Whether it makes sense or not due to natural inequalities for women, shouldn't the same luxuries have been applied across the board, in the interest of equality and non-sexism?

Sadly, this form of dichotomy will probably continue for a very, VERY long time.

Recently, a black fella was trying to explain to me why colleges should drop entrance requirements for minorities. He explained that kids raised in black neighborhoods were often abused for achieving in school, and therefore, should be allowed free entrance to colleges, understanding that their culture denies them basic education. Does this make sense to anyone else? It made no sense to me.
 
Patrick said:
Did anybody talk yet about the law students who got into the University of Michigan with lower test scores even though they were white.

Not that I saw. Tell me about them.

Well, if you look up the case in archives, I think it was on NPR, you will find that the case rests upon the admission of AA students based upon a preference given to AA students. So the plantiff sued on the basis that there were these AA students who got admited into the law program depite having lower LSAT scores than the plantiff.
What the plantiff doesn't state in thier suit is that there are a lot of students (like seventy) who got into the law program who had lower test scores and they were not placed there on the basis of race. they were placed there because of other unfair advantages in the admission system, like you parent going to the scholl.
 
Should the person with the highest IQ automatically be the president of the united states????

Of cousre not. WHy?? Cause a High IQ doesnt mean you have the skills to do the job. Its just a test. Same with the SAT or whatever. Its an indicator and nothing else. Its one factor of many when deciding whether to hire or admit someone.

Who here has ever gotten a job merely on there resume?? Theres always and interview because there are intangibles they want to investigate.

If people get into UM law under an AA program, and they are so unqualified wouldnt they all fail out??? Its not like they get different tests or extra points. AA just gets you in the door.
 
Ed said:
Incidentially, aside from some feel good but vacuous comments I have not yet heard why diversity is a good thing. Anyone care to explain?

As I understand the point to the PC movement and the promotion of diversity is to remove cultural barriers to the advancement of individuals.

Like women: should not be dicriminated against because they don't want sexual harrasment. A monolithic 'male' work enviroment will frequently encourage and promote sexual harrasment.

Like religion: a person should not be passed over for promotion because they happen to not go to the same church as thier boss, or happen to not go to church at all.

Like 'minorities": there are so many wierd ways the cultural barrier can play out here. Should someone how is a secular jew be denied promotion for refusing to eat pork at a company BBQ, should a hispanic catholic be denied promotion because they have a picture of Mary in thier car, should an african american be denied promotion based upon thier speech patterns.

Like homosexuality:should a worker who does their job well fear retribution from co-workers.

Like class: (this one is harder), should someone be denied promotion because all they have is 'book learning', should someone's ideas be ignored because they don't have a master's degree.

Like wooism: should someone be harrased at work because they don't believe in herbal remedies.

These examples are not all the best, but the idea is to create a meritocracy where cultural beliefs do not create a barrier in the work place.
 
zaayrdragon said:
When I was in the Army...........

Do you want to get into somthing that REALLY effects job placement. Lets talk about veteren preferences in civil service jobs. That has WAY more of an effect than AA. Yet you hardly hear anyone complain about it.
 
Patrick said:
Idiotic. White students with high grades get their careers wrecked so you can meet new friends. People like you can/should meet your interesting friends at your own expense and on your own damn time, not on the backs of students who study for 12 years, whose parents might have to scrimp and save to earn enough for tuition, who get high grades and high scores and do what they're supposed to do to get admitted, and then get stopped in their tracks so that you can have interesting friends.

Narrow minded view you have there. (what a surprise)


Whats good about diversity??? Its another form of education and knowledge. Thats what university is about.

Lets say you're a doctor. If youve never delt with different people from other backgrounds can you effectivly treat all you patients?? People from diffrent races/countries/ religions may have different needs and sensibilities. If your ignornant of other people you maynot build that repore needed to have the patient open up to you. You may not be able to treat them correctly.
 

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