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Disgraceful! Richard Spencer Sucker-Punched While Giving Interview

Pretty much this - I'd say that as long as a reasonable person could feel intimidated, they'd not be to blame for responding with violence.

I'd say threatened, not intimidated. I feel intimidated all the time and that doesn't give me the moral right to punch people. There has to be threat to life, limb or property (and for that last one, the appropriate response is far less than for the other two).
 
That's some mighty cognitive dissonance right there.

Do you have a link to that?

That would require me to go search and try to find the thread. Lemme see what I can find. Me & the search function aren't really good friends, mind.

ETA: I can't seem to make the search function go back far enough. The threads look like they got archived somewhere along the way, and I can only see things back to the beginning of 2017. I dunno what's up with that. It was an epic thread though.
 
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Did you know that there were Nazis who didn't work in concentration camps and had no hand in killing Jews?

Hitler never worked in a concentration camp and had no personal hand in killing anyone. All he ever did was speak about his beliefs. And people wanted to use violence against him for his words!!1!!111!
 
Hitler never worked in a concentration camp and had no personal hand in killing anyone. All he ever did was speak about his beliefs. And people wanted to use violence against him for his words!!1!!111!

Yeah, that's funny because Hitler, like Spencer in the US, had absolutely no power in Nazi Germany. :rolleyes:

Way to ignore the main thrust of the point just to "win" the argument.
 
There's a difference between Schindler (being a party member for business reasons in an authoritarian state and then using that influence to save a bunch of people) and Richard Spencer.

That's rather the point, isn't it? People are individuals, and saying "Nazi" really isn't justification enough. If it doesn't suffice for Schinder, why should it suffice for Spencer? It doesn't. You need to appeal to something else about Spencer, but once you do, why just Nazis?

You can't actually draw a meaningful line.
 
I know. That's what I mean. He's as bad as the real (historical) Nazis.

But my point was you justified this claim by saying that he's as bad as them because he is one of them. You laid it out as if it were a logical deduction (Nazi = Nazi). Since you're saying you did, in fact, mean that he's as bad as the "real (historical) Nazis", "he's as bad as them because he's one of them" no longer makes any sense.

If you don't think so, bully for you. I Think that Spencer is as bad as the real (historical) Nazis. (Note for Argumemnon: This does not mean I believe Spencer has killed 6 million Jews).

I'm not saying you can't hold that opinion. I'm just saying the way you tried to justify it didn't make sense.
 
There's a difference between Schindler (being a party member for business reasons in an authoritarian state and then using that influence to save a bunch of people) and Richard Spencer.

Of course there's a difference! But this is another example of where your "he's just as bad because Nazi = Nazi" (paraphrasing) argument breaks down.
 
I believe it's fully supported by the quote itself, but that Spencer didn't actually use the word 'eugenics', only described a process that would entail eugenics.

Which leads me to believe that you're still just looking for what you want to see. As far as you seem to be concerned, white supremacist = Nazi.

Let's condemn him then. Let's not bicker and argue about whether the neo-Nazi supports genocide or if only the magazine he edited does, or if he only supports ethnic cleansing. Either is equally condemnable, and that's really the point, isn't it? Everything else is FUD.

Hmm? He has been condemned, a bunch of times there. The main point directly in contention here is whether we should keep our condemnations reasonable and well supported, though, it seems. Also no, ethnic cleansing in general and genocide are not equally condemnable, at last check, and rather points at you continuing to try to grasp at straws.

You're missing the point. Spencer is a Nazi. Hence, he's as bad as the Nazis.

Meanwhile, it seems that you've quite failed to demonstrate that the claim, "Spencer is a Nazi," is actually true. Rather, you seem to just be repeatedly asserting it with incredibly flimsy evidence and hoping that bluster will make up for the inadequacy there. You do realize, I hope, that you're pretty much forcing people to take up the annoying task of defending someone that they don't really like for the sake of upholding their ideals of and desire for reasonable and rational discourse.

No, I'm not. I'm the one who wants to defend democracy against someone who's political goal is to destroy it.

You seem to be lacking in positive evidence for either of those claims. I can believe that you believe that you're trying to do so, but even if so, you seem to be horribly misguided when it comes to methodology.

In Sweden, Spencer would have been prosecuted for hate speech by now, so you can speak for yourself there.

And? Engaging in notably lesser forms of hate speech than the Nazis engaged in is not the same as being a Nazi. We can ignore actions, of course, given that Spencer's not in a position where his actions can be meaningfully compared to theirs. Also, employing or advocating legal action is not the same as employing or advocating vigilante/criminal action. How, exactly, do you think that the quoted here would be a meaningful argument to address any of the objections to your claims?

The slippery slope in that thread was created by the people who said that punching a Nazi would lead to civil war.

Misrepresenting what people actually said wins you no points.
 
Only if there is a reasonable expectation that such actions are imminent and plausible.

If Trump loses his mind (more) and starts saying he's going to send all people of middle-eastern decent to an internment camp, that by itself is insufficient to excuse an attempt on his life from rightly being condemned as attempted murder, with all the attendant legal ramifications of that act.

If, however, Trump's blathering results in active steps by congress, law enforcement, and/or the military, then that represents an imminent threat that justifies self-defense.

Words alone are insufficient. Words with imminent action can constitute a threat.


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This^^^

In the words of John Stuart Mill
An opinion that corn-dealers are starvers of the poor, or that private property is robbery, ought to be unmolested when simply circulated through the press, but may justly incur punishment when delivered orally to an excited mob assembled before the house of a corn-dealer -JS Mill, On Liberty
 

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