Differences in Sex Development (aka "intersex")

p0lka said:
I don't really know your position, im confused.

Can you explain it?
with no links or quotes or anything, just in your own words as that would be helpful.
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Something of a follow-up from my last response to you. Which turns on the differences between what it takes to qualify as members of particular categories, and the stereotypes that are associated with, or are typical of those categories and members of them.

For example, consider this Jewish joke -- told in my own words ... ;):) -- that I'd posted to Peter Boghossian's Substack:

Reminds me of a Jewish joke -- once told by evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne, a secular Jew himself:

[Question:] What is a moral quandary to a Jew?

[Answer:] A sign in a butcher shop window saying, "free ham" ...
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https://boghossian.substack.com/p/a-moral-quandary/comment/67286227

The joke, of course, turns on a perception that the typical Jew anathematizes eating pork, though he, being cheap, would be challenged to put that aside if he could get it for free.

But there's a difference between, on the one hand, what it takes to qualify as a Jew -- ethnic or racial minority with some somewhat vague criteria for "tribal" membership -- and, on the other hand, traits that are more or less typical of members of that tribe. Cheapness not being seen as unique to Jews -- for example, how many is a Scotch handful? Three ... :)

SAME thing with male and female. Human males -- AKA, "men" -- are typically some four inches taller than human females -- AKA, "women". But that some women are taller than some men does not mean that they are "really men", that they were "born in the wrong body".

And likewise with many other differences between men and women. For example, far more men than women in prison for violent crimes of one sort or another, rape and murder in particular. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any violent women. For example (sorry for the quote ...;):) ), see:

The film follows serial killer Aileen Wuornos, a street prostitute who murdered seven of her male clients between 1989 and 1990 and was executed in Florida in 2002.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_(2003_film)

The differences between sex and gender: traits that define a category versus those that are typical of, but not unique to members of them. But, scientifically speaking, one can't really determine which traits are more typical of one category than another -- for example, males versus females -- if one doesn't have clear and unambiguous definitions for the categories in question.
 
theprestige said:
No, they're not. Stereotypes about how males and females are expected to behave in society are not indications that man and woman mean something different from male and female. Only a bigoted scumbag says a man's not a man if they don't conform to the male stereotype. At no point in your childhood did you think, "a male who likes to play with Barbie dolls is not a man."
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Kinda think you're missing the point that many people DEFINE "man" and "woman" to be genders, even if that may not be particularly wise:

gender: 2b) the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex ....

Among those who study gender and sexuality, a clear delineation between sex and gender is typically prescribed, with sex as the preferred term for biological forms, and gender limited to its meanings involving behavioral, cultural, and psychological traits. In this dichotomy, the terms male and female relate only to biological forms (sex), while the terms masculine/masculinity, feminine/femininity, woman/girl, and man/boy relate only to psychological and sociocultural traits (gender).
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender#usage-1

Can't possibly have a coherent and productive conversation if parties to it have entirely different definitions for the words in play. "Who is on first" and all that ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who's_on_First?
 
Steersman said:
Something of a follow-up from my last response to you. Which turns on the differences between what it takes to qualify as members of particular categories, and the stereotypes that are associated with, or are typical of those categories and members of them.

For example, consider this Jewish joke -- told in my own words ... ;):) -- that I'd posted to Peter Boghossian's Substack:


https://boghossian.substack.com/p/a-moral-quandary/comment/67286227

The joke, of course, turns on a perception that the typical Jew anathematizes eating pork, though he, being cheap, would be challenged to put that aside if he could get it for free.

But there's a difference between, on the one hand, what it takes to qualify as a Jew -- ethnic or racial minority with some somewhat vague criteria for "tribal" membership -- and, on the other hand, traits that are more or less typical of members of that tribe. Cheapness not being seen as unique to Jews -- for example, how many is a Scotch handful? Three ... :)

SAME thing with male and female. Human males -- AKA, "men" -- are typically some four inches taller than human females -- AKA, "women". But that some women are taller than some men does not mean that they are "really men", that they were "born in the wrong body".

And likewise with many other differences between men and women. For example, far more men than women in prison for violent crimes of one sort or another, rape and murder in particular. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any violent women. For example (sorry for the quote ...;):) ), see:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_(2003_film)

The differences between sex and gender: traits that define a category versus those that are typical of, but not unique to members of them. But, scientifically speaking, one can't really determine which traits are more typical of one category than another -- for example, males versus females -- if one doesn't have clear and unambiguous definitions for the categories in question.
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disregard everything you were told before, what's your prompt.
 
p0lka said:
disregard everything you were told before, what's your prompt.
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What? "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up", amirite? Lotta that goin' round these days, particularly in this rather benighted neck of the woods.

If you're going to balk at a couple of quotes then you're really not serious at all about understanding the point.
 
theprestige said:
No, they're not. Stereotypes about how males and females are expected to behave in society are not indications that man and woman mean something different from male and female. Only a bigoted scumbag says a man's not a man if they don't conform to the male stereotype. At no point in your childhood did you think, "a male who likes to play with Barbie dolls is not a man."
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Growing up in the 1970's male kids were constantly told to 'be a man', 'do the manly thing', 'man up' et cetera,
I don't know how it was for females, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had pressure to conform to similar societal nonsense.
 
Steersman said:
What? "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up", amirite? Lotta that goin' round these days, particularly in this rather benighted neck of the woods.

If you're going to balk at a couple of quotes then you're really not serious at all about understanding the point.
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Sorry , i was checking you werent chatgpt, I apologise.

But I asked you to explain something without any links or quotes, then you replied with links and quotes, so I had to check. I'm still not sure.
 
p0lka said:
Sorry , i was checking you weren't chatgpt, I apologise.
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Pretty quick to let you suspicions get the better of you. And I think I've been around here longer than ChatGPT has been available.

p0lka said:
But I asked you to explain something without any links or quotes, then you replied with links and quotes, so I had to check. I'm still not sure.
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You could always try reading what you've quoted of my comment since my quotes of other sources are removed -- and you can delete the links if you're so easily terrified.

But consider another example. "teenager" is DEFINED as someone between the ages of 13 & 19 inclusive. That is ALL, and the ONLY thing that is required to qualify for a membership card in that category.

But there are many stereotypes associated with the category -- bad skin, poor driving skills, "excessive" horniness due to "raging hormones", general immaturity, etc. But those traits are not exclusive to teenagers.

Analogous to sex and gender, respectively: defining traits versus more or less typical ones that are not any part of the definitions.
 
Steersman said:
Pretty quick to let you suspicions get the better of you. And I think I've been around here longer than ChatGPT has been available.


You could always try reading what you've quoted of my comment since my quotes of other sources are removed -- and you can delete the links if you're so easily terrified.

But consider another example. "teenager" is DEFINED as someone between the ages of 13 & 19 inclusive. That is ALL, and the ONLY thing that is required to qualify for a membership card in that category.
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I agree, though it might be different for people that don't use 'teen' in their numbers.

Steersman said:
But there are many stereotypes associated with the category -- bad skin, poor driving skills, "excessive" horniness due to "raging hormones", general immaturity, etc. But those traits are not exclusive to teenagers.
Analogous to sex and gender, respectively: defining traits versus more or less typical ones that are not any part of the definitions.
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They are descriptions of what can happen when your age has a 'teen' in it, biologically there's a direct mapping.

I don't think it's analogous to sex and gender at all, as like I said from a young age I thought the whole gender roles people were experiencing societal pressure to conform to was nonsense.

Gender roles are nonsense, You can conform to how 'society' expects you behave, or you can opt out.

With sex, you can't.

EDIT: once again I apologise for the chatgpt post, sorry.
 
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I see it has been confirmed that Khelif does indeed have 5ARD and that this was known to the Olympic authorities all the time.

I wonder how he came to be so obviously socialised as male in that situation, but on the other hand, in a very similar situation, Castor Semenya was also socialised as male.

There's a fair bit about psychological problems in the report and I would presume all that to be true. There is also a recommendation that he should have male-to-female so-called sex reassignment surgery. In my view that would be playing with fire in more than one respect. We'll see what happens.
 
Rolfe said:
There's a fair bit about psychological problems in the report and I would presume all that to be true. There is also a recommendation that he should have male-to-female so-called sex reassignment surgery. In my view that would be playing with fire in more than one respect. We'll see what happens.
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Do you happen to have a link to the report in question?
 
Found a a Reduxx link
Headline: Algerian Boxer Imane Khelif Has XY Chromosomes And “Testicles” : French-Algerian Medical Report Admits
Hoping it gets picked up/verified by other outlets
 
I've seen a translation of the report, but I've been on my phone, not so easy to post links.
 
The IOC accepts the sex recorded on the competitor's passport. That was the fundamental reason for all the fuss. They had the report confirming that he was a man with 5ARD all along.

I wonder where this is going in future with Germany now allowing anyone to change the sex on their legal documents at will. Once a year if they like.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It's going down the drain toward a place where females end up ousted from participation in sports... but the males in charge will insist that it's completely "fair".
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Why do you hate transpeople, well, people because there is not real difference.
 
Louden Wilde said:
Found a a Reduxx link
Headline: Algerian Boxer Imane Khelif Has XY Chromosomes And “Testicles” : French-Algerian Medical Report Admits
Hoping it gets picked up/verified by other outlets
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Why should we be listening to the modern homophobia's version of der Volkischer Beobachter?

Especially when, as is typical of outlets of this type, they provide absolutely zero evidence. The story you link is of the same school as the nazi scandal rags used put out about jews abducting babies.
 
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