Differences in Sex Development (aka "intersex")

To simplify, screening should be:
- XY gene?
- do they produce testosterone?
- can their body use testosterone?

Therefore as I understand the consensus - Female category therefore excludes XY genes, except for the special case where their body does not produce male levels of testosterone, or cannot use testosterone.

Rolfe can probably put numbers on the prevalence of each category.

This seems reasonable, and should be required of every athlete when they first enter IOC competition. If universally applied, speculation about an athlete that does not look or act female enough should be muted and easily dismissed.

And no test results should ever be made public.
 
So might the withheld results of the test the Russians claim to have done, but it seems we'll never see it.


I've seen actual karyotype spreads showing the XY chromosome complements for both athletes. I can't find the links now because of Twitter glitch, but I see no reason to believe these have been painstakingly faked.

They both look like young men who have gone through normal puberty, so it's hard to see what else they could be. Despite all the pearl-clutching from the "you want to police women's looks" brigade, pretty much everyone in the human race can accurately tell the sex of another member of their own species to a very high degree of accuracy.

I was musing about looks the other day because I met a woman I haven't seen for some time who obviously has some hormonal condition because she's got a lot of facial hair, which has increased since the last time I saw her. As she ages, a stranger might read her as male, but only at a cursory glance.

I called her over because I had just been asked the meaning of my name by an American woman, and as I was explaining she walked past. She has the same first name as me. I said, look, it's quite a common name around here, and she chimed in with the explanation. Whether you translate it as "princess" or "powerful woman", it's unambiguously female gender in Gaelic.

The moment she turned to us and began to speak there was no doubt at all that she was a woman, facial hair and all. We didn't need the tell-tale -ag suffix to know. It's not about criticising anyone's appearance, it's about being able to tell the difference between a man and a woman, which really, isn't that hard.
 
People who were born with male sex and have chosen to switch to female gender but still look physically male anyway can be called "female" based on the argument that sex and gender are two different things. But, based on that same premise, nobody's chosen socio-psychological gender has any relevance at all to their physical sex.

I disagree with your labeling there, I'll highlight my correction.

"People who were born with male sex and have chosen to switch to woman gender but still look physically male anyway can be called "woman" based on the argument that sex and gender are two different things. But, based on that same premise, nobody's chosen socio-psychological gender has any relevance at all to their physical sex."

You can't change your sex, it's impossible at this moment in time as we don't live in a culture novel.

Either they're separate things, or they aren't. If they aren't, then the argument for calling transgender people what they want to be called is gone. If they are, then any & all arguments that have been offered to call Khelif female are gone. It's been amusing watching the same side of these issues that's spent years asserting the difference between sex and gender now suddenly reverse their position and insist that Khelif is female based on an argument that absolutely requires that they're exactly the same thing and they've been lying about a made-up fake difference all these years.
incorrect axiom = incorrect conclusion.

It is amusing.
 
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They both look like young men who have gone through normal puberty, so it's hard to see what else they could be.
Semenya, Wambui, & Niyonsaba all look like athletic young men as well, and yet they are all on topic in this thread.
 
I disagree with your labeling there, I'll highlight my correction.

"People who were born with male sex and have chosen to switch to woman gender but still look physically male anyway can be called "woman" based on the argument that sex and gender are two different things. But, based on that same premise, nobody's chosen socio-psychological gender has any relevance at all to their physical sex."

You can't change your sex, it's impossible at this moment in time as we don't live in a culture novel.

We do, however, live in a society experiencing a strong push to make sex a sociopolitical attribute, rather than a biological one.

Broke: Sex and gender are synonymous, both referring to biological sex and its attendant social constructs.

Woke: Sex and gender are independent, the former referring to biological sex and the latter referring to any arbitrary social construct, construct queering, or construct dissent a person may wish to express.

Bespoke: Sex and gender are synonymous, both ignoring biological sex and referring exclusively to arbitrary social constructs.
 
To simplify, screening should be:
- XY gene?
- do they produce testosterone?
- can their body use testosterone?

Therefore as I understand the consensus - Female category therefore excludes XY genes, except for the special case where their body does not produce male levels of testosterone, or cannot use testosterone.

Rolfe can probably put numbers on the prevalence of each category.


We're talking about tiny numbers. The number of births where the baby can't be accurately sexed simply by eyeballing what's between its legs has been estimated at 0.018%. In developed countries with decent neonatal care a fair proportion of these are going to be spotted at birth or soon afterwards, so the proportion that are undiagnosed at puberty will be even smaller.

The issue is two-fold. One is that a mis-sexed 5ARD boy is going to stand out athletically if he's competing with girls, even as a child, and so that diagnosis may be disproportionately represented among the élite athletic stream simply for that reason. The other is that countries (South Africa is the one where it's known about, they appointed a German coach specifically for this purpose, but others are probably at it too) actively scout for these boys, who have been registered as girls, in pursuit of medals.

We have to remember that we're not discussing normal variants like red hair or green eyes that just happen to have an athletics advantage, we're talking about pretty major medical conditions which should be diagnosed as early as possible for the well-being of the person involved. Fertility is the obvious issue, but there are other problems.

So I think it's wrong to look at this simply as a matter of sports eligibility. What the screening process is going to turn up, in a very few cases (and they'll be a damn sight fewer if things like 5ARD are not going to get past, thus ending the incentives to scout for these conditions like "talent"), are actual medical conditions. Whether or not the decision is to let the person compete as a woman becomes secondary to getting the best care possible for someone in need of medical attention.

Initial screening for XX/XY chromosomes might be an approach, but I think it better to go straight for the SRY gene. It would go something like this, for girls aged about 14, who are embarking on the pathway towards élite sports.

A coach, obviously a woman, would introduce the girls to the concept, explain that it's non-invasive and no embarrassing examinations are involved. She would then tell the girls that anyone who has started her periods doesn't have any reason at all to doubt their result, and suggest that anyone who hasn't should have a word with her mother in the first instance, but that her own door is open if the girl wants to discuss it further.

Hopefully this would channel any doubtful cases to their own doctors in the first instance. The majority of these girls will either just be on the high end of the distribution curve of normal age for puberty, or be experiencing a delayed puberty as a result of too strenuous training, which needs to be addressed for its own sake. One would hope that the small numbers of CAIS, Swyer's, 5ARD, PAIS and the more rare things would then mostly be identified and cared for by the medical profession. Swyer's and (probably) CAIS girls might come back into the women's athletics stream when they've had their diagnosis.

5ARD and PAIS are obviously more difficult, if these are really boys who have been misidentified as girls at birth. They're probably beginning to experience male puberty and wondering what's going on. It's never going to be easy for them, but the sooner they can be treated (if necessary) and counselled about how to manage their condition, the better. Obviously nobody is going to insist that they transform themselves into boys overnight, but absent pressures to keep up a pretence to secure a lucrative athletics career many might find that as puberty progresses they're happier acknowledging their true sex. See Erik Schinneger. Who I suspect is not answering his phone right now.

So if all this was in place, the number of mis-sexed boys actually showing up for "sex testing" should be pretty damn small.

First, SRY gene testing. The vast majority are going to be negative, end of issue. This athlete has that result permanently appended to her record and is eligible for women's events. SRY positive cases are regarded not as a simple matter of inclusion or exclusion, but as a medical issue which needs to be investigated for the sake of the child's health. A testosterone test (assuming one can be sure no cheating is happening) will identify the Swyer's cases, but still, this is something a girl needs to know about and come to terms with. The high testosterone cases need to be separated into CAIS on the one hand, and 5ARD, PAIS and the vanishingly rare other conditions that might cause a male to appear female at birth.

The biggest issue is deciding exactly where the dividing line is between CAIS and marked PAIS, and that's above my pay grade. It's a matter for specialist endocrinologists, and there are some people who think that even CAIS - which allegedly confers some marginal male advantages as regards skeletal morphology etc - shouldn't be allowed. But these are extraordinarily rare edge situations where the endocrinologists need to advise the sporting authorities where the line should fairly be drawn, clear guidelines should be drawn up, and adhered to with the maximum attention to sensitivity and care for the mental health of these children.

At the moment the free for all that's going on is about the worst thing possible. There is no incentive at all to identify these DSD cases while the athletes are still children, and every incentive to plough on regardless, constantly assuring a child who is clearly going through male puberty that he's "really a girl" and stoking anger and resentment against anyone who dares to point out the truth. These children need medical and psychological support to navigate their condition as they mature, not gaslighting to railroad them into becoming medal factories.

So I'd say the absolute opposite of what I read in a broadsheet newspaper recently. This debacle shows the absolute necessity of early, thorough and sensitive sex testing for all girls entering the élite athletic pathway, and absolutely not "look at what happens when you sex-test someone, this needs to be banned outright."

Because, as these boys grow to manhood, as they start to find their full adult strength as they approach their mid-twenties, people are going to talk anyway. Defeated athletes are going to protest. Repeated debacles are not going to be prevented by saying she's a girl because it's on her passport and look here is a photo of some random child with ribbons in her hair. You bigot.

The only way to fix this is to make sure that female means female, and telegraph it loud and clear that male children are not going to be allowed into the women's events, regardless of passports or upbringing. This will ensure early diagnosis of problematic DSDs so that the children can be helped, and (if appropriate) steered away from élite sports before too much has been invested in this pathway. It will also take the pressure of tall, muscular, successful female competitors, where jealousy and spite might give rise to false accusations. If everyone has been properly tested as a child, then everyone can have confidence that there are no ringers.

Then maybe they could look at enforcing actual drug misuse cases as well.
 
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That's because they are all athletic young men.
They weren't assigned male at birth on account of a sex-specific DSD, which is why they are on topic here. Had they been part of a criminal conspiracy to defraud world athletics, that would be a different thread.
 
They weren't assigned male at birth on account of a sex-specific DSD, which is why they are on topic here. Had they been part of a criminal conspiracy to defraud world athletics, that would be a different thread.


Irrespective of the background, they are young men. It's just a fact. Whether or not they were deliberately sought out for their condition, is also irrelevant. (That wouldn't be a criminal conspiracy if the rules say passport sex is all that's needed for eligibility, anyway.)
 
That wouldn't be a criminal conspiracy if the rules say passport sex is all that's needed for eligibility, anyway.
Passport-only is a recent development in boxing, since the IOC deferred to the IBA as recently as 2020.

Which (arguably conspiratorial) scenario are you putting forward here?

  1. Imane Khelif was selected to compete against women even though trainers knew or suspected (s)he was male
  2. Imane Khelif was targeted for recruitment due to her DSD, which would allow her to get past IOC (if not IBA) regs
  3. Something else, heretofore unmentioned
AFAIK it could be any of these given the uncertainty in the sources, but I'm tryna get where you're coming from with respect to this one athelete.
 
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They weren't assigned male at birth on account of a sex-specific DSD, which is why they are on topic here. Had they been part of a criminal conspiracy to defraud world athletics, that would be a different thread.

You know all this how? Caster Semenya gave us the blueprint. How to beat anti doping measure by exploiting fiat sex ID. Even if Semenya and his sponsors erred in good faith, we have no reason to believe any post-Semenya sports authority would make the same mistake.
 
Passport-only is a recent development in boxing, since the IOC deferred to the IBA as recently as 2020.

Which (arguably conspiratorial) scenario are you putting forward here?

  1. Imane Khelif was selected to compete against women even though trainers knew or suspected (s)he was male
  2. Imane Khelif was targeted for recruitment due to her DSD, which would allow her to get past IOC (if not IBA) regs
  3. Something else, heretofore unmentioned
AFAIK it could be any of these given the uncertainty in the sources, but I'm tryna get where you're coming from with respect to this one athelete.


Please get your conversation straight. You initially stated that "Semenya, Wambui, & Niyonsaba all look like athletic young men". I remarked that that's because they are all athletic young men.

You went off on some tangent about them having been mis-sexed at birth because of a DSD, which is true, but doesn't affect the fact that they are indeed young men. I said so. I also said that no criminal conspiracy was involved because they competed within the existing rules at the time. Whether or not they were deliberately head-hunted because of being mis-sexed on account of a DSD.

You continue to rant about conspiracies and Iman Khelif, which I had said I would drop because people were saying it was off topic. Why are you doing this?
 
Please get your conversation straight. You initially stated that "Semenya, Wambui, & Niyonsaba all look like athletic young men". I remarked that that's because they are all athletic young men.

You went off on some tangent about them having been mis-sexed at birth because of a DSD, which is true, but doesn't affect the fact that they are indeed young men.
Part of being a man, in my understanding, involves growing up with the social expectations of masculinity. None of them had that experience, so they are ill fitted for the social role of manhood without going through a conscious process of transition.
 
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That's a highly complex issue that has nothing to do with the problem of male people, normally referred to as men, competing in women's sporting events.

It's highly debatable whether Castor Semenya failed to grow up with the social expectations of masculinity. I don't know anything about the backgrounds of the other two. However, that is something for the medical establishment, and in particular the mental health services to deal with. The misfortune of being mis-sexed at birth should not entitle an adult man to enter women's athletics events.

As I pointed out above, the present situation is inimical to the welfare of mis-sexed boys. Instead of being properly diagnosed at puberty at the latest and supported to navigate an unavoidably difficult situation and make their own unforced decision about how to live their lives, they're gaslit with nonsense about still being a "real woman" with testicles, and put on an exploitative path to become a medal factory.

The sooner it's well understood that nobody who has both a functional SRY gene and functioning androgen receptors is eligible to complete in women's events, the sooner women's events will become female only and fair for the 51% of humanity who fought for these events so that they could be included, AND the sooner mis-sexed boys will get the treatment and support they need to become the best people they can be, rather than being compelled to live a lie for fame, fortune and gold medals.
 
Why elite women’s sports need to be based on sex, not gender

Sort of amazed they let this article through at WaPo.

The essential example is Katie Ledecky, who is said to be “better at swimming than anyone is at anything.” She just won an unprecedented fourth straight Olympic gold medal in her best event, the 800-meter freestyle. Her world record time in that event — 8:04.79 — shows up at No. 26 among the best American 15- to 16-year-old boys.

Comes with excellent illustrations as well.
 
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I have been watching this debate on NYT because I seem to be paying 240 NZ dollars a year.
We are a long way from bringing science, and statistics to the discussion in any Western country.
Just a thought:

2 and only 2 boxers are banned by IBA as XY.
2 and only 2 win gold medals in Paris.

That is statistics before science gets considered.

The Western media are victorious in defining these males as victims.

But this is not sustainable
 
Someone could surely tell us what percentage of the females who entered the women's boxing got gold medals compared to the percentage of the males who entered the women's boxing who got gold medals.
 

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