DHS report: right wing = scum

I will serve no whine before its time. But what exactly is "dishonest" whining as compared to honest whining?
If you do not yet know the difference between honesty and dishonesty, it may be too late for me to teach you.

But it may help you to know that there is a difference, and that normal people can tell the one from the other.
 
If you do not yet know the difference between honesty and dishonesty, it may be too late for me to teach you.

But it may help you to know that there is a difference, and that normal people can tell the one from the other.

I have never heard the word "dishonest" used in connection with whining. Does that mean that the annoying fashion of Whiplash's complaint was not actually annoying? So Whiplash was not whining at all, but providing a reasoned and clam description of your posts. OK. You are correct.
 
Of course they should. I never said anything to the contrary. But that identification must be based on a propensity for violence, not on their political beliefs. And since a propensity for violence can and does exist across the political spectrum, looking at someone's political beliefs on issues like abortion isn't even a useful correlator with propensity for violence.
You'll note that that is not actually what the report says. It does not say that anti-abortion and anti-immigrant groups and individuals are ipso facto likely to engage in violence; it does say that those persons likely to engage in violence may include anti-abortion and anti-immigration activists. Some As are also Ts, but not all As are Ts, and only some Ts are also As. Need me to draw you a Venn diagram?

Since most of the rest of your argument is predicated on that misinterpretation, I don't see a whole lot of point in refuting it point by point.
If they don't advocate violence, then no, they don't. The person responsible for violent acts is the person who commits violence. We should not be engaging in any shifting of responsibility of this sort, because to do so is to basically rule that some political speech is unacceptable. But it is not: political speech is speech, and should be free and protected as long as it doesn't advocate violence. I am not suggesting that it be immune from criticism, but assigning blame for the actions of others goes beyond that: if we accept the premise that it shares culpability for crimes, then we must logically do more than just criticize it, and that's not acceptable.
Culpability and responsibility are not entirely the same thing; it is possible to be one without being the other. A military unit commander is responsible for his subordinates' (mis)behavior, even if it occurs without his knowledge or approval, and if he fails to discipline them himself, he can be held accountable. Of course, there is no such formal hierarchy in the anti-abortion movement, but there's still a possible element of incitement.

But where exactly do we draw the line at what constitutes "advocating violence"? There's a fairly sizeable gray area of rhetoric along the lines of the "Nuremberg Files" which equate abortion providers with Nazi war criminals, and even if there is no explicit, direct call



Interesting example: you're basically saying that statements which may be true should not be said because some nutjob might do the wrong thing in response.
I said no such thing. (Two can play at that game.)

Funny, but I don't recall any military veteran organizations, for example, making "root cause"-type excuses for Timothy McVeigh. Did the American Legion need to "clean house" before they sent Napolitano a letter objecting to the report?
Maybe they should have actually read the report, rather than relying on some second- or third-hand interpretation of what it actually said. Which is this:
Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities.
Note it doesn't say returning veterans are inclined to violent extremist behavior, or to seek out groups that are. The stated concern that such groups will take the initiative to seek out and attempt to recruit veterans.
And what anti-abortion groups excused attacks against doctors with "root cause"-type excuses? You may be able to find one, but this goes back to my objection to your "they": if you find one, you're basically going to use it to paint all anti-abortion groups with the same brush.
I can cite some examples, but since you've already indicated you're going dismiss them as unrepresentative, I don't see much point in listing them.
Let me be more explicit then: I reject the entire premise of your question.
How convenient. I think the most effective response I can give is that I, for my part, reject the entire premise of this thread.
 
I'm embarrassed that a supposed conservative can''t spell embarrassed.
Says the guy who typed a quote mark where he should have had an apostrophe. We all make typos from time to time, and it's pretty sophomoric to dismiss someone's opinion on that basis, especially when you commit a typo yourself in the process.
The NRA is radical?
That's not what rwguinn said; he said that you can provide support to a group without fully sharing its agenda, let alone the agenda of the more radical elements of that group (thereby implying that the group as a whole need not be radical).

I can identify with the example; I'm an NRA member myself, mostly because I found myself in a discussion with a member, and I was listing what I didn't like about the NRA, and he said (in so many words) "better to light a candle than curse the darkness." I support the NRA in the sense that I pay membership dues, and I like the educational programs, but I send every request for donations from ILA back with "stop sponsoring CPAC" written on it.
 
I have never heard the word "dishonest" used in connection with whining. Does that mean that the annoying fashion of Whiplash's complaint was not actually annoying? So Whiplash was not whining at all, but providing a reasoned and clam description of your posts. OK. You are correct.
Was that supposed to mean something?
 
Says the guy who typed a quote mark where he should have had an apostrophe. We all make typos from time to time, and it's pretty sophomoric to dismiss someone's opinion on that basis, especially when you commit a typo yourself in the process.
That's not what rwguinn said; he said that you can provide support to a group without fully sharing its agenda, let alone the agenda of the more radical elements of that group (thereby implying that the group as a whole need not be radical).

I can identify with the example; I'm an NRA member myself, mostly because I found myself in a discussion with a member, and I was listing what I didn't like about the NRA, and he said (in so many words) "better to light a candle than curse the darkness." I support the NRA in the sense that I pay membership dues, and I like the educational programs, but I send every request for donations from ILA back with "stop sponsoring CPAC" written on it.


Anymore sophomoric than saying, "Don't you get tired of being wrong always?" Or is highlighting a spelling error in rwguinn's post that was mostly ad hominem, and the rest not even germane to the subject matter, a greater sin?

How is giving money to the NRA even remotely relevant to varwoche's notion that because MM has VDARe as one of her 150 blogroll links, she is a unabashed, or even tacit, supporter of the "white supremacists?" Does she send VDARE money?

BTW: I am an NFA owner and because the NRA routinely throws us under the Greyhound, I don't give them penny one. If you truly have a grievance with any NRA policy, continuing to pay dues, even with a curt message attached, is really not going to make a helluva impact impact when they already know they have your monetary support for life.
 
Need me to draw you a Venn diagram?

No, I don't. Need me to inform you that the people reading these reports don't draw Venn diagrams of what they read? Like I said, while the report doesn't SAY that the quote I gave earlier is a definition, it remains the closest thing to a definition that can be found in the report. Which may be part of why the DHS's own civil rights lawyers objected to the report's language.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090416/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/napolitano_right_wing_extremists_9

Since most of the rest of your argument is predicated on that misinterpretation, I don't see a whole lot of point in refuting it point by point.

You've misinterpreted and/or misrepresented my position, so of course you feel fine dismissing it. I note, however, that my criticism of the quality of the report (including the use of false data) has gone unanswered.

Culpability and responsibility are not entirely the same thing; it is possible to be one without being the other. A military unit commander is responsible for his subordinates' (mis)behavior even if it occurs without his knowledge or approval, and if he fails to discipline them himself, he can be held accountable. Of course, there is no such formal hierarchy in the anti-abortion movement,

And hence no reason to assign responsibility for the actions of those they cannot monitor or discipline.

But where exactly do we draw the line at what constitutes "advocating violence"?

Maybe it's just me, but I always thought we draw the line of what constitutes "advocating violence" at, you know, actually advocating violence.

Maybe they should have actually read the report, rather than relying on some second- or third-hand interpretation of what it actually said.

I did. Which is why I not only quoted from it, but linked directly to it in post #20. Really, this was a weak accusation on your part.
 
The report is a poorly-disguised attempt at "profiling" without actually using the word "profiling", because THAT would be illegal
And police departments read them literally--back when my son was in Elementary school, the cops did a presentation on gangs.
I was amazed that everyone who wore a "Raiders" jacket or jersey? --gang member.
Blue hankie? Gang member
Red hankie? Gang member
They knew, because gang members used these things. When questioned, they stuck to the reports.
 
Hmmm. I know I'm younger than some posting to this thread, but I remember the rise of the militia movement, clinic bombings and Operation Rescue's tactics during the Clinton era. Let's not forget the near hysteria over electing a "Muslim" during the presidential campaign, the screams of committed Marxist, etc. And are Conservatives really so dense they deny that there aren't some right-wingers are racist and have a problem with an uppity Marxist ****** as president and willing to act on their outrage?

Give me an effin break... Michelle Malkin, Rush, Jonah Goldberg... this isn't about you. It's about the resurgance of WAR, Aryan Nations, the Klan, etc. If you want to associate yourself with scum like them, do so, but don't get upset when I laugh at you for making a mountain out of a canyon.
 
Hmmm. I know I'm younger than some posting to this thread, but I remember the rise of the militia movement, clinic bombings and Operation Rescue's tactics during the Clinton era. Let's not forget the near hysteria over electing a "Muslim" during the presidential campaign, the screams of committed Marxist, etc. And are Conservatives really so dense they deny that there aren't some right-wingers are racist and have a problem with an uppity Marxist ****** as president and willing to act on their outrage?Give me an effin break... Michelle Malkin, Rush, Jonah Goldberg... this isn't about you. It's about the resurgance of WAR, Aryan Nations, the Klan, etc. If you want to associate yourself with scum like them, do so, but don't get upset when I laugh at you for making a mountain out of a canyon.

Really??? Who has denied their are right wing stupid racists??? In fact who has denied their are left wing stupid racist?? Racism transcends politics. Your statement does show how you are prejudiced and bigoted just because someone is to the right of you.

Please show the numbers that prove there actually is a resurgence in WAR, Aryan Nations, the Klan, etc. I think it's just propaganda and you fell for it.


As for the DHS report, it's just to cover their ass the next time the Government decides to kill 76 people.
 
Napolitano blamed one of her agency's analysts for prematurely sending out the intelligence assessment to law enforcement, according to Craig Roberts, an American Legion member who attended the meeting. The report says veterans returning from Iraq or Afghanistan could be susceptible to right-wing recruiters or commit lone acts of violence.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090424/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_napolitano_republican_heat
 
Darth Rotor said:
VDARE is white supremacist? I thought they were anarcholibertarians. Huh?
Even Brimelow (the man behind VDARE) admits to a white nationalist agenda.

Why are you afraid of VDARE?
You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Why you post this sort of idiocy is beyond me.

IIRC, a few years back, you could find links to Chris Hedges anti war articles there. Is Hedges a White Supremecist?
(1) too flimsy with the IIRC and (2) the link is just one of the ways that Malkin has supported VDARE. You need to consider all of the facts.
 
Even Brimelow (the man behind VDARE) admits to a white nationalist agenda.

You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Why you post this sort of idiocy is beyond me.

(1) too flimsy with the IIRC and (2) the link is just one of the ways that Malkin has supported VDARE. You need to consider all of the facts.

What are these mysterious other ways MM has "supported" VDARE? The examples you have shown, i.e. includes a VDARE link among 150 other links in her blogroll, mentioned Peter Brimelow as her "friend," and....? Does she send VDARE money? Is she a VDARE spokesperson? Guilt by association didn't fly with Obama supporters regarding the extremists Wright/Ayres and his HHSS nominee, Sebelius.

Has the SPLC emailed you about any other pernicious website on MM's blogroll? Surely MM's penchant for white supremacy must be evident elsewhere?
 
What are these mysterious other ways MM has "supported" VDARE?
I've itemized these "mysterious" other ways to you more than once, including in this thread.

The examples you have shown, i.e. includes a VDARE link among 150 other links in her blogroll, mentioned Peter Brimelow as her "friend," and....?
This is an incomplete summarization. I'll be glad to present the evidence again if you wish to start a thread.
 
What I'm wondering is, was while the original draft which lumped a lot of conservatives in with white-supremacists, militants, and extremists was re-written to just include white-supremacists, militants, and extremists, if the DHS is still operating (in actuality even though not officially) under the assumption that conservatives are to be lumped in with white-supremacists, militants and extremists...


INRM
 
VDARE is white supremacist?

I thought they were anarcholibertarians.

Huh?

DR

VDARE is derived from the name Virginia Dare, the first white child born in America.

They are white nationalists with anarcho-capitalist leanings.

As for occassionally hosting a seemingly rational human being, they do this for a strategic purpose, to recruit "useful idiots" to the RaHoWa. Basic Turner Diaries strategy.

You put up a front that looks patriotic and inflame the tiny-brained but patriotic folk to think that violent action may be needed to "save" your country from the (insert growing political or ethnic group here.)
 

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