Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

[Porpoise of Life]

And, pray tell, how does the number 7 link it to Atlantis then?

 

[King of the Americas]

And the Tuatha de Danann, the gods / wave of invaders that preceded the Gaels were said to have arrived from four magical island cities where they learned crafts that surpassed those of mere mortals.

It's clear that we have to look far to the north of Spain for the real Atlantis

Okay...

Please do carry on.

 

[Pixel42]

Days of the week then...

NOT the original seven churches, the days that lamp burned

Whatever you like. There could be any number of reasons they picked 7, I pulled that one out of the air at random. There could be any number of reasons they decided to put them all in a row too, and every other aspect of the design. I just gave you one of dozens of possibilities.

AND it was okay to just change the number.

You've been corrected on that but you ignored it, just as you ignore everything that doesn't fit with what you want to believe.

 

[Belz...]

Is this what I 'missed'...?

Your theory is that Ireland is Atlantis?

THAT's your alternative theory to "off the Spanish coast"...?

So, are you saying the the symbol came from the a more northerly situated Atlantis?

Well, maybe...seems like a stretch, but it's your theory, so let's see it fully fleshed out?

Do you believe Exodus was talking about an Irish mount?

Irony.

 

[Belz...]

Priest one: we need some new lamps for the temple, the current ones aren't very good

Priest two: let's make some that look suitably impressive, rather than just having the same ones everyone else uses. After all, this is The Temple

Priest one: Good idea. We could make them of gold, for example.

Priest two: Oh, obviously gold, yes, but they also need to be bigger than normal lamps. Maybe more than one lamp holder?

Priest one: How about 7? One for every day of the week?

Priest two: That's good. And arranged in a nice pattern, like a tree or a growing plant, say

Priest one: But if they're round like a tree we won't be able to strand them on ledges, shelves and window sills

Priest two: Good point. Let's put them all in a row, then, with the stand under the central one so they're nice and stable

Priest one: Done. I'll instruct the lamp maker

Priest two: Make sure to tell him it's a command from god so he won't slack off.

 

[Belz...]

That's not what happened.

Says the layman who admits to not actually knowing how it happened.

abaddon has an interesting theory...a more northerly Atlantis. But an Atlantis nonetheless.

Another attempt to completely ignore my point. You really are scared of it, aren't you?

 

[SOdhner]

Another attempt to completely ignore my point. You really are scared of it, aren't you?

Yeah, you can tell a lot by what he does and doesn't respond to.

For example, he's happy to reply to fragments where he can falsely accuse me of misquoting him, but when I put the whole conversation in one post he ignores it and doesn't address the question.

He's happy to respond to people trying to show how absurd his position is when he can act like the examples they use are alternate theories to be dismissed, but when we flat out show he has no positive evidence he ignores it.

It seems to me that he just wants to go endlessly in circles about irrelevant details rather than getting to the actual meat of it.

But I'll keep trying, because for now at least it's kind of funny to watch him try to avoid the very core of his own theory. It reminds me a lot of my discussions with Rramjet, back in the day.

The "evidence" you've presented has not included anything relevant to a link between Atlantis and the menorah.

1. You've talked about Plato, and some ruins off the coast of Spain. This part of the conversation is relevant to whether or not Atlantis exists at all, but it is not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people.

2. You've talked about how symbols in general and the menorah in specific may have changed over time. This part of the conversation is relevant to establishing that it is possible the menorah could have been based on some other symbol, but it is not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people.

3. You've talked about some carvings and symbols. Not only are these symbols not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people, you haven't even linked the symbols to either of those things individually.

So, again, I'm willing to set aside the stuff about Atlantis existing and I'm willing to concede that the menorah could have been taken from some other source. If you will actually engage with me on providing evidence that links the menorah to Atlantis I will totally concede your premise (that Atlantis existed and was in or near what is now Spain).

So far you haven't done this. Acting like you've given evidence linking the menorah to Atlantis won't work, we've all read this thread. If you have anything, please present it now.

 

[Zivan]

Days of the week then...

Could have been. Or number of planets, or constellations, or days of creation, etc. Who knows. 7 was a sacred/mystical/magical number in the ancient world.

Days of the week is just as probable as any other "meaning" for the number 7 used.

NOT the original seven churches,

You do know that christianity was not invented until centuries after the menorah, right? So no, not the "original seven churches".

the days that lamp burned,

The menorah/lamp was lit every day with fresh oil.

You are confused AGAIN/STILL between the 7-branch menorah and the hanukiyah.

AND it was okay to just change the number.

No, you are still confused. It has been explained to you, but you ignore the explanation, just like you are ignoring what others have posted.

 

[abaddon]

abaddon has an interesting theory...a more northerly Atlantis. But an Atlantis nonetheless.

And I have hard evidence and you do not. Show me the carvings at your purported Spanish site. You cannot. Show me the migration of peoples to Greece where Plato lived. You cannot. Show me evidence of a cataclysmic flood of the area. You cannot. Show me evidence of a pre-biblical Menorah. You cannot. Show me evidence of a pre-biblical carving of a Menorah. You cannot. Show me evidence of an island in the Atlantic matching the Platonic description. You cannot.

But I can.

What say you now?

 

[abaddon]

Is this what I 'missed'...?

Your theory is that Ireland is Atlantis?

THAT's your alternative theory to "off the Spanish coast"...?

So, are you saying the the symbol came from the a more northerly situated Atlantis?

Well, maybe...seems like a stretch, but it's your theory, so let's see it fully fleshed out?

Do you believe Exodus was talking about an Irish mount?

Would you count this edifice as a mount?

http://www.newgrange.com/newgrange/newgrange.jpg

 

[King of the Americas]

Sorry I missed this:

I'll just repeat myself, I guess:

The "evidence" you've presented has not included anything relevant to a link between Atlantis and the menorah.

You mean besides their shape, date, and location?

1. You've talked about Plato, and some ruins off the coast of Spain. This part of the conversation is relevant to whether or not Atlantis exists at all, but it is not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people.

Again, the Jewish people 'adopted' the symbol. That's the only connection required.

2. You've talked about how symbols in general and the menorah in specific may have changed over time. This part of the conversation is relevant to establishing that it is possible the menorah could have been based on some other symbol, but it is not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people.

How are Buddhists connected to Nazi's?

How is Christ connected an an egg laying rabbit?

The answer is there is no connection. These symbols were adopted, without a connection.

3. You've talked about some carvings and symbols. Not only are these symbols not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people, you haven't even linked the symbols to either of those things individually.

Wait, what? 3 concentric rings aren't connected to Atlantis? The menorah isn't connected to the Jewish people?

So, again, I'm willing to set aside the stuff about Atlantis existing and I'm willing to concede that the menorah could have been taken from some other source. If you will actually engage with me on providing evidence that links the menorah to Atlantis I will totally concede your premise (that Atlantis existed and was in or near what is now Spain).

Could have? The biblical evidence said it was adopted. The treatments that have been applied indicate it's meaningless. I'm glad you have moved in the direction of considering this premise. So, what next?

Does it matter where Atlantis may have been?

Given the time period in which Plato wrote about 3 concentric circles (pre-dating the Jewish religion), how might one symbolize it, or its destruction?

So far you haven't done this. Acting like you've given evidence linking the menorah to Atlantis won't work, we've all read this thread. If you have anything, please present it now.

Have you seen the video?

 

[King of the Americas]

Could have been. Or number of planets, or constellations, or days of creation, etc. Who knows. 7 was a sacred/mystical/magical number in the ancient world.

Days of the week is just as probable as any other "meaning" for the number 7 used.

WAS mystical...? But Jewish people don't KNOW why or how for certain...? "Let's worship a lamp candle holder with 7 flames, just because...!"

And that doesn't seem like an 'adopted' symbol treatment?

You do know that christianity was not invented until centuries after the menorah, right? So no, not the "original seven churches".

That factoid came from one of the rabbis I listened to on the topic, not my postulation.

The menorah/lamp was lit every day with fresh oil.

You are confused AGAIN/STILL between the 7-branch menorah and the hanukiyah.

Right. I am saying the menorah has 7 flames because that lamp burned that long. Or was it 8?

No, you are still confused. It has been explained to you, but you ignore the explanation, just like you are ignoring what others have posted.

You're confused about my being confused, further confusing an already confusing conflation.

 

[King of the Americas]

And I have hard evidence and you do not. Show me the carvings at your purported Spanish site. You cannot. Show me the migration of peoples to Greece where Plato lived. You cannot. Show me evidence of a cataclysmic flood of the area. You cannot. Show me evidence of a pre-biblical Menorah. You cannot. Show me evidence of a pre-biblical carving of a Menorah. You cannot. Show me evidence of an island in the Atlantic matching the Platonic description. You cannot.

But I can.

What say you now?

You are FABULOUS at debating yourself.

Carry on.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

You mean besides their shape, date, and location?

You keep repeating that, but you never support that. Worse: you ignore it when people tell you literally what's wrong about that.

Shape of submerged part of Spanish ruins: unknown
Shape of rock carving: rainbow with five lines
Shape of Atlantis: three circular canals
Shape of menorah: stylized tree with semicircular branches.

Dating of the ruins: not given.
Dating of Atlantis according to Plato: 12000 years ago
Dating for the menorah: 3000 to 3500 years ago

Location of the ruins: coast of mainland Spain.
Location of Atlantis: huge continent in the middle of the Atlantic
Location of the Jews: thousands of miles from Spain in the Middle East.

The only thing that you could argue 'fits' is that both a random symbol in Spain, and a menorah use somewhat curved lines.
Dating and location are all over the place, and there is no actual link between​ either the ruins and Atlantis, the Jews and Atlantis, or the Jews and the ruins.
And you know you've got nothing, because you keep trying to divert attention.

 

[SOdhner]

The "evidence" you've presented has not included anything relevant to a link between Atlantis and the menorah.

You mean besides their shape, date, and location?

Huh? Shape of what? Date of what? Location of what? That literally makes no sense. What shape links the menorah to Atlantis? What date links the menorah to Atlantis? What location links the menorah to Atlantis?

1. You've talked about Plato, and some ruins off the coast of Spain. This part of the conversation is relevant to whether or not Atlantis exists at all, but it is not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people.

Again, the Jewish people 'adopted' the symbol. That's the only connection required.

That's not related to the thing you just quoted by me, so I'm not sure why you quoted it. I was pointing out that arguments for the existence of Atlantis don't count as arguments for a link between Atlantis and the Jewish people because even if we accepted the existence of Atlantis you would still need to prove that connection.

Instead of commenting on that, you've just yet again asserted that the Jewish people adopted the symbol from elsewhere. That's actually more relevant to the next thing I said:

2. You've talked about how symbols in general and the menorah in specific may have changed over time. This part of the conversation is relevant to establishing that it is possible the menorah could have been based on some other symbol, but it is not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people.

How are Buddhists connected to Nazi's?

How is Christ connected an an egg laying rabbit?

The answer is there is no connection. These symbols were adopted, without a connect.

We can talk about Nazis and Easter and stuff if you want, but it's irrelevant to what you just quoted. What I was pointing out is that arguments for the idea that the menorah could have been changed over time or been adopted from somewhere else are not in any way arguments that it was specifically taken from something related to Atlantis. I can only assume you are having trouble understanding this, since your reply is yet again just showing examples of things that were borrowed from elsewhere.

To repeat myself yet again: I'm not debating that. I don't disagree that it's possible, and also I couldn't care less. That it is possible is not in any way proof that it happened, and in particular it is not proof that this specific symbol was taken from anything related to Atlantis.

3. You've talked about some carvings and symbols. Not only are these symbols not evidence that links Atlantis to the Jewish people, you haven't even linked the symbols to either of those things individually.

Wait, what? 3 concentric rings aren't connect to Atlantis?

Concentric rings are a common pattern. If you want to say that some specific instance of concentric rings are specifically referring to Atlantis, you would need to produce evidence. You have not done so.

The menorah isn't connected to the Jewish people?

I never said that. Try reading it again. I said that the symbols that you insist are the inspiration for the menorah have not been linked to the Jewish people. You SAY that they are, but you have provided exactly zero evidence of this.

Obviously the menorah itself is.

So, again, I'm willing to set aside the stuff about Atlantis existing and I'm willing to concede that the menorah could have been taken from some other source. If you will actually engage with me on providing evidence that links the menorah to Atlantis I will totally concede your premise (that Atlantis existed and was in or near what is now Spain).

Could have? The biblical evidence said it was adopted. The treatments that have been applied indicate it's meaningless. I'm glad you have moved in the direction of considering this premise. So, what next?

What's next is you provide EVIDENCE that links Atlantis to the menorah.

Does it matter where Atlantis may have been?

Are we not going with your suggestion that it's in Spain? If you want to move it around, just let me know. I suppose you could make your task easier if you want to declare it was in Israel or something.

Given the time period in which Plato wrote about 3 concentric circles (pre-dating the Jewish religion), how might one symbolize it, or its destruction?

No clue. Any number of ways. You can make up something, but unless you have evidence I don't see the point. Here, I'll pick something for you. I guess, if I wanted to remember the destruction of Atlantis, I would make a symbol with some wavy lines crashing into a temple. The temple of Poseidon was the center of the island, and it was sucked under the waves. So, in really rough ASCII art: Π)\

Look, I know that you want me to say "Gosh! The only logical thing would be some circles!" but I genuinely disagree. I mean, the most likely would be just writing the actual name "Atlantis". I don't know why we have to play around with doodles in the first place.

But even if I were to (for some reason) declare that concentric circles were the only possible way to indicate Atlantis - now you would still need to show me some concentric circle patterns that you can prove are, specifically, a reference to Atlantis. This may come as a shock to you, but finding some concentric circles somewhere does not immediately mean they are talking about Atlantis.

To recap:

You have still provided no actual evidence connecting Atlantis to the menorah.

Do keep trying though!

 

[King of the Americas]

...

To recap:

You have still provided no actual evidence connecting Atlantis to the menorah.

Do keep trying though!

^Has not seen the video.^

 

[The Greater Fool]

^Has not seen the video.^

James Cameron is every bit as much of an historian as is Plato.

That is to say, not at all.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

I've seen the video, and none of their assertions are supported.
That's not too relevant though, because it's up to you to support your own claims.
You can't just point people to an hour and a half video in the hopes they'll never watch it so you won't have to answer difficult questions.

I reiterate: none of the claims you have made are supported by the documentary.

 

[SOdhner]

^Has not seen the video.^

^Has not read my post, replied to any of it, or provided any evidence^

I watched as much of the video as is available for free. It didn't mention a menorah. It made one mention of concentric circles, but that part was laughably horrible and I'm assuming for your sake that there are much better examples.

If part of the video that I haven't found online presents actual evidence linking Atlantis to the menorah, why don't you mention that evidence here? Why are you unable to even summarize it, rather than just going back to the same irrelevant points?

Is it because the evidence doesn't exist?

I've seen the video, and none of their assertions are supported.
That's not too relevant though, because it's up to you to support your own claims.
You can't just point people to an hour and a half video in the hopes they'll never watch it so you won't have to answer difficult questions.

I reiterate: none of the claims you have made are supported by the documentary.

Yeah, that's what I was assuming since he can't seem to actually mention any of the supposed evidence here. Thanks for confirming!

 

[King of the Americas]

James Cameron is every bit as much of an historian as is Plato.

That is to say, not at all.

Both should be mined for truth, rather than disregarded as fiction.

*And I am NOT talking about Avatar, something he has issued as fiction.*