Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

[Porpoise of Life]

I assume all those dates are in Old Testament years? Where a year could equal a day or a day could equal a millennium? 'Cuz there's this problem with this narrative, sort of your elephant in the refrigerator.... There was no Athens 9500 B.C.E. How did a non-existent city-state stop a mythical empire?

Why don't you trust the super trustworthy Plato?
By the way, he is of course super wrong about the size, location and dating, because Atlantis is really a small Spanish coastal town from a few centuries before Plato, and not a mighty 9000 year old naval empire located on an island the size of Greenland in the middle of the Atlantic.
But other than that... how dare you doubt Plato? All fictional chatacters in his dialogue agree with him!

 

[Cosmic Yak]

http://www.ancient.eu/atlantis/

I can see how it was missed...

I responded- "More evidence no one will address."

Yeah, I followed and read that link at the time. Just did it again. You said:



But nothing at that link says anything of the sort. At all. I genuinely have no idea what you're referring to. Did you maybe paste in the wrong link?

I think he did. He posted my link, which comprehensively disproves his argument re Plato.
KotA: how many times does that link have to say 'myth', 'metaphor' or 'legend' before you understand that Plato's description of Atlantis was a myth, a metaphor and a legend?

 

[King of the Americas]

@KOTA

You seem to be confused about what a menorah even is. That certainly does not help your "theory" at all.

I listened to three different rabbis give three different explanations for the menorah, quoted the bible's references to its origins, and 'find' that the menorah is without meaning or symbolism.

Uh.....because lights were needed inside the mishkan, and later the temples, which is what the menorah was made for.

So, you think the menorah was the first torch and nothing more? Why worship it, why did God say build this specific graven image? Why worship just a candle stick?

Religious symbols have 'meanings'...they are tied to something important events, people, or places.

If it is just 'light' should they abandon worshipping lamps and candle holders in favor of light switches?

Because it was a pattern, based on BOTANY!!! The instructions given included, "branches", "stem/stalk", "almonds", "flowers".

Objection- Speculation

There were NO candles. It was an oil lamp. The menorah (hebrew word for "lamp") was used in the mishkan, and the first and second temples. The second temple was destroyed in 70 CE. Candles were not even used in the near east untill ~400 CE.

Why 7, and why lose the 'lamp' in favor of candles?

The original design stated 7 oil holders. That number has NOT changed. Even today, whether oil is used, or candles, it is STILL 7 !!!!!!

You are confusing the 7 branch menorah, with a hanukiyah. They are NOT the same thing. [/QUOTE]

You don't seem Jewish....

https://unitedwithisrael.org/the-menorah-vs-the-chanukiah/

A hanukiyah has 9 oil cups, or candles, and can be any shape or design, with one of the 9 (shamash) off set from the other 8.

Lamps or candles, 7, 8, or 9? And, you still have not offered an alternative theory as to where this adoption came from.

What does this mean? There was NO specification as to whether the branches were straight or curved. Some scholars, such as Maimonides, thought the original branches could have been straight. The earliest carved etchings we have show both semi-circular branches and elliptical

See above.

Please provide evidence of the "earliest carved etchings" that are NOT semi-circular.

Everything I've found, that's really old, looks nothing like straight branches...they are ALL 'very' semi-circular.

---

So, what event, person, place or concept is being worshiped? 7 original churches, a lamp that burned a long time, God's light upon the world...?

When you think of the word 'pattern' does that infer something symmetrical?

 

[King of the Americas]

I think he did. He posted my link, which comprehensively disproves his argument re Plato.
KotA: how many times does that link have to say 'myth', 'metaphor' or 'legend' before you understand that Plato's description of Atlantis was a myth, a metaphor and a legend?

While not an official objection, I find it quite objectionable that so many "skeptics" have disregard Plato as some sort of "Enquirer" journalist trying to sell copy, rather than teach and inform.

I beg you, take a classical literature class, learn why Plato wrote, and why 'proven principle,' observations, and understanding the true nature of the world was important.

Metaphors, myths and legends are intended to teach people about "TRUE" lessons, things that will aid them in life. Vampires are blood sucking life forms that recoil when they smell garlic...Eat a poopload of garlic and see if mosquitoes still bite you. While not the sparkly versions of Twilight, there's truth in the myth. Some people have adopted the lifestyle, and drink blood, due to iron deficiencies. Not doing so might end their life prematurely.

Teachers don't just make stuff up that isn't based in a true principle...if they did they would cease to be a teacher and begin work to mislead...

Posters have compared Plato to Rowling...!?!? Are you flipping kidding me???

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Plato was NOT, I repeat NOT, in the business of misinforming people into false principles or unproven relationships.

 

[fagin]

What the hell does any of that have to do with a fictional city?

 

[SOdhner]

Objection- Speculation

That's literally your whole argument, though. Your entire case is just speculation.

Plato couldn't have possibly made up Atlantis as an allegory. Why? Just speculation.

Some ruins on the coast of Spain are Atlantis even though they don't match the size, location, or shape described. Why? Just speculation.

Even though everything about Plato's account was wrong, anything you want to count as 'evidence' must have been correct. Why? Just speculation.

Some symbols are a reference to Atlantis even though there's nothing actually linking them to the legend of Atlantis in any way. Why? Just speculation.

Some symbols are both a reference to Atlantis and the source for the design of the menorah even though they have no connection to either and there's no connection between Atlantis and the Jewish people. Why? Just speculation.

These symbols were made by Atlanteans, despite being in the wrong place and being the wrong age. Why? Just speculation.

But if someone else speculates a much more plausible explanation? OBJECTION!

 

[TheSapient]

Yes.

Stop "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"...

Can you please confirm you actually are saying the fictional characters in Plato's story of Atlantis serve as examples of other people in Plato's time that believed in the existence of Atlantis?

I find your MO to be irritating. "I'm totally right but I'm not an archaeologist so I can't tell you why I'm right but if you read my links the evidence will be there but if you DID read my links and found they didn't support my claims you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

 

[Porpoise of Life]

While not an official objection, I find it quite objectionable that so many "skeptics" have disregard Plato as some sort of "Enquirer" journalist trying to sell copy, rather than teach and inform.

I beg you, take a classical literature class, learn why Plato wrote, and why 'proven principle,' observations, and understanding the true nature of the world was important.

Metaphors, myths and legends are intended to teach people about "TRUE" lessons, things that will aid them in life. Vampires are blood sucking life forms that recoil when they smell garlic...Eat a poopload of garlic and see if mosquitoes still bite you. While not the sparkly versions of Twilight, there's truth in the myth. Some people have adopted the lifestyle, and drink blood, due to iron deficiencies. Not doing so might end their life prematurely.

Teachers don't just make stuff up that isn't based in a true principle...if they did they would cease to be a teacher and begin work to mislead...

Posters have compared Plato to Rowling...!?!? Are you flipping kidding me???

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Plato was NOT, I repeat NOT, in the business of misinforming people into false principles or unproven relationships.

If Plato is so trustworthy in his descriptions, then why do you hold that Plato's 11000 year old naval empire located on a huge continent in the middle of the Atlantic was actually a 3000 year old small town on the coast of Spain?
How do you justify those enormous discrepancies?

If Plato was right, this location can't be Atlantis.
If Plato was wrong about the date, location, size and power of Atlantis, then why assume he was correct about other elements?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

While not an official objection, I find it quite objectionable that so many "skeptics" have disregard Plato as some sort of "Enquirer" journalist trying to sell copy, rather than teach and inform.

I beg you, take a classical literature class, learn why Plato wrote, and why 'proven principle,' observations, and understanding the true nature of the world was important.

Metaphors, myths and legends are intended to teach people about "TRUE" lessons, things that will aid them in life. Vampires are blood sucking life forms that recoil when they smell garlic...Eat a poopload of garlic and see if mosquitoes still bite you. While not the sparkly versions of Twilight, there's truth in the myth. Some people have adopted the lifestyle, and drink blood, due to iron deficiencies. Not doing so might end their life prematurely.

Teachers don't just make stuff up that isn't based in a true principle...if they did they would cease to be a teacher and begin work to mislead...

Posters have compared Plato to Rowling...!?!? Are you flipping kidding me???

No, No, No, a thousand times NO.

Plato was NOT, I repeat NOT, in the business of misinforming people into false principles or unproven relationships.

Yes, he was. You don't seem to know much about Plato's philosophy. He was not an empiricist.

 

[SOdhner]

Metaphors, myths and legends are intended to teach people about "TRUE" lessons, things that will aid them in life.

Sure! And what you're missing here is that Plato wasn't trying to teach history. He was making up history and using this made up history to teach other things.

Plato was NOT, I repeat NOT, in the business of misinforming people into false principles or unproven relationships.

Plato WAS, I repeat WAS, in the business of using fiction to convey his ideas. I mean, this is not something you can realistically deny. He did it a lot.

 

[Belz...]

But WHY a lamp, at all? Why was a lamp important? Why was the shape described as a "pattern?"

You don't know. We don't know. It's no excuse to make the answer up.

 

[Belz...]

So, you think the menorah was the first torch and nothing more?

You could ask the same question about the ark of the covenant but it doesn't mean it represents a lost rectangular city.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

KoTA, does this mean you also believe people at one time were ball shaped with 4 arms, 4 legs and two heads until the gods separated us?

After all, Plato gives that history in a dialogue too.

 

[King of the Americas]

That's literally your whole argument, though. Your entire case is just speculation.

Plato couldn't have possibly made up Atlantis as an allegory. Why? Just speculation.

Some ruins on the coast of Spain are Atlantis even though they don't match the size, location, or shape described. Why? Just speculation.

Even though everything about Plato's account was wrong, anything you want to count as 'evidence' must have been correct. Why? Just speculation.

Some symbols are a reference to Atlantis even though there's nothing actually linking them to the legend of Atlantis in any way. Why? Just speculation.

Some symbols are both a reference to Atlantis and the source for the design of the menorah even though they have no connection to either and there's no connection between Atlantis and the Jewish people. Why? Just speculation.

These symbols were made by Atlanteans, despite being in the wrong place and being the wrong age. Why? Just speculation.

But if someone else speculates a much more plausible explanation? OBJECTION!

Please address the menorah, its origins, its changing nature, and the fact that NO ONE has yet offered ANY explanation, much less one superior to Cameron and National Geographic's theory.

But, by all means, continue to call Plato a liar...

 

[King of the Americas]

Can you please confirm you actually are saying the fictional characters in Plato's story of Atlantis serve as examples of other people in Plato's time that believed in the existence of Atlantis?

I find your MO to be irritating. "I'm totally right but I'm not an archaeologist so I can't tell you why I'm right but if you read my links the evidence will be there but if you DID read my links and found they didn't support my claims you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

I'll confirm only that Plato was a teacher, not a misleader.

I have little patience for people who put words into my mouth...

 

[Belz...]

Please address the menorah, its origins, its changing nature, and the fact that NO ONE has yet offered ANY explanation, much less one superior to Cameron and National Geographic's theory.

Not having an alternate explanation to nonsense doesn't make nonsense true.

 

[King of the Americas]

Sure! And what you're missing here is that Plato wasn't trying to teach history. He was making up history and using this made up history to teach other things.



Plato WAS, I repeat WAS, in the business of using fiction to convey his ideas. I mean, this is not something you can realistically deny. He did it a lot.

Teachers DON'T make up history. They retell it to fit their lesson plan.

We disagree. Plato was not a liar, a peddler of falsehoods, nor is he akin to J.K. Rowling.

 

[King of the Americas]

You don't know. We don't know. It's no excuse to make the answer up.

Ignorance is truly bliss, eh?

 

[SOdhner]

Please address the menorah, its origins, its changing nature,

Please address any of the things I have brought up in my posts. Your rampant speculation without any evidence is not in any way proof of your pet theory, and so there's no need to address this. I don't need to prove any specific origin for the menorah, you have to prove yours. I've offered up suggestions that are far more plausible than yours, though.

and the fact that NO ONE has yet offered ANY explanation, much less one superior to Cameron and National Geographic's theory.

Yes, we have. Multiple times. Meanwhile your theory requires:

1. Plato to have been literally documenting historical fact rather than making up Atlantis as an allegory just as he did for so many other things (unless you're saying Er was a real person that actually traveled to the afterlife and then escaped to tell the tale?).

2. That some ruins on the coast of Spain are Atlantis even though they don't match the size, location, or shape described, and are in an area where the ocean wasn't rendered impossible to navigate.

3. That some extremely common shapes are a reference to Atlantis even though there's nothing actually linking them to the legend of Atlantis in any way and despite them not being found in a location that has any connection to Atlantis.

4. That some other common shapes are both a reference to Atlantis and the source for the design of the menorah even though they have no connection to either and there's no connection between Atlantis and the Jewish people.

5. That these symbols were made by Atlanteans, despite being in the wrong place and being the wrong age.

All of this asserted without any actual evidence and declared to be the "most plausible" explanation.

But, by all means, continue to call Plato a liar...

I didn't say he was lying, I said he was making up stories to use in an allegorical manner. Something not being historically accurate isn't the same as it being a lie. Remember, Plato never said "Atlantis is real!", it was a FICTIONAL CHARACTER in a story that Plato wrote that said that.

 

[King of the Americas]

You could ask the same question about the ark of the covenant but it doesn't mean it represents a lost rectangular city.

This thread is about how the menorah was a pattern adopted, not the ark.

Stop pettifogging.