Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

[SOdhner]

Plato's writings also have to be mined, as they are included in the "ALL" super-set.

I think you didn't understand my post. Let's try again:

Since Plato's writings are literally the only account of Atlantis, what ELSE is in the "all" super-set?

 

[King of the Americas]

Not having an alternate theory does nothing to make Cameron or you right about your Atlantis...

Until an alternative theory arises with 'better' evidence, Atlantis is the best possible conclusion we have at the moment.

But again, again, AGAIN...please do provide an alternative theory with corresponding evidence...we are ALL waiting.

 

[King of the Americas]

I think you didn't understand my post. Let's try again:

Since Plato's writings are literally the only account of Atlantis, what ELSE is in the "all" super-set?

I understood your question.

My response is that since Plato is part of the ALL super-set, it too has to be mined for truth.

---

If or as other evidence arises, it too will need to be mined.

 

[King of the Americas]

SOdhner,

I was rather looking forward to your explanation of the "7"...am I hoping against hope?

 

[SOdhner]

My response is that since Plato is part of the ALL super-set, it too has to be mined for truth.

Okay, then that makes it a nonsensical response to the original point:

Still no word on how Plato is simultaneously correct about the existence of Atlantis because he is a trustworthy teacher, yet at the same time completely wrong about the size, location and dating because... reasons?

Because NO single source of history is sans errors.

An accurate historical account must be mined from the all available sources.

The question, as you can see above, is pointing out that Plato was (by your logic) wrong about almost every aspect of Atlantis (size, shape, location, age, etc.) and you responded by saying that's okay because you take everything into account.

But now you're admitting that "everything" is just Plato. So it becomes:

"Plato is unreliable, but that's okay because I'm also relying on Plato!"

This is, obviously, nonsense.

 

[SOdhner]

SOdhner,

I was rather looking forward to your explanation of the "7"...am I hoping against hope?

I thought I said this already, but it could be that there was some confusion due to whatever the context of that post was - rather than look back for a quote, let me just say it here:

It doesn't matter. I couldn't care less. I haven't researched that part, and don't plan on it, and that has no bearing on this. Let me explain why.

All of this stuff about symbols changing, and the menorah in particular changing... it's not evidence that in any way connects the menorah to Atlantis. I'll happily concede that symbols change. No problem! While I personally find it plausible that - with any number of arms - it is and always was a lamp, I am also willing to believe that it was adopted from some other form or image like a tree or a funny shaped rock or an erosion pattern on a mountainside or a rainbow or some other culture's religious symbol or a funny-looking chair or a rough sketch of an arial view of an island or whatever.

Sure.

But that's not really what you need to prove. That it's POSSIBLE for the menorah to be based on something that is seemingly unrelated is obviously true. Instead, you need to provide positive evidence for your specific theory.

And you haven't.

For a moment (and I trust you won't misinterpret this) let's assume that Plato was telling a totally historical account and Atlantis was a real place. Let's just concede that part of the discussion for now and set it aside so we don't get distracted.

Without going off about Plato, without going into all the ways that symbols can hypothetically change (since I am, for now, conceding those points)... how do you link Atlantis to the Jewish people? What positive evidence do you have? I could pick any people anywhere and blindly assert they had knowledge of something, but I want some kind of actual evidence.

Curved lines, branching lines, circles, concentric circles - these are all common shapes. They aren't unique to Atlantis, and in fact you have no carvings or symbols that you can prove came from Atlantis at all. So we can't just say "the menorah has curved lines next to each other, therefore Atlantis!" because I could just as easily claim that's based on a tree or a rainbow or whatever.

This whole time, all these pages and replies, and you've never provided ANY evidence that actually links Atlantis and the menorah.

I'm waiting.

 

[Zivan]

AGAIN, why did God say 'this' specific image? Why the pattern on the mount. Why THE specific image.

Awesome. So, inform everyone as to what the first "7" lamps represented?

Certainly!

They represent an asterism in the constellation Ursa Major. (Hey! Why not?)

Anyhoo.....

There is a little known story about Plato. (James Cameron did not make a documentary about it because....it is little known).

About 5000 years ago, Plato was getting tired of living in sunny, beautiful Greece. (That was a few thousand years before he was born but, who cares about pesky facts) so he decided to go on vacation. To Siberia. In winter. He thought it would be cool. And lo, it was very cool. Freezing-ass cool.

He went to a balmy (by Siberian standards) resort town and rented some snowshoes and went on a hike. He found a lot of big rocks with petroglyphs which were very awesome. Plato said, "This is very awesome!" so he wrote a story.

He decided the story would be about Siberia sinking and disappearing into the ocean (except for the petroglyphs, which would magically stay on dry land in case James Cameron changed his mind about another documentary).

But, Plato was worried that some skeptics, 5000 years in the future, would not believe a story about Siberia disappearing so he decided to write the story about a very big island with mountains on it and strange looking people. Very strange looking people with menorah shaped heads. (Which he had seen on the petroglyphs).

In the region of Siberia where Plato was, there were some mountains ranges called 'Alatau' and 'Abakan' so he decided to name the island in his story 'Atlantis'. Because it rhymes.

He was really, really excited about writing the story about the menorah-head people because he heard there were some Bronze Age herders wandering around the Near East looking for a religious symbol and he thought this would be exactly what they were looking for. Plato said, "This is exactly what they are looking for!"

After he wrote the story, he wanted to hurry back to Greece to share it with everyone, but he was snowed in and stuck in Siberia. Fortunately, there were a lot of ancient astronauts back then so they beamed him aboard and took him back to Greece.

Unfortunately, they lost his luggage, (I know, right!) which was on a different UFO, and baggage claims had not been invented yet, so he lost all the pics he took.

Except for this one:

https://cogniarchae.wordpress.com/2...iberia-khakassia-petroglyph-about-5-000-bce2/

And the Bronze Age herders were very happy and decided to use it for their religious symbol!

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Until an alternative theory arises with 'better' evidence, Atlantis is the best possible conclusion we have at the moment.

But again, again, AGAIN...please do provide an alternative theory with corresponding evidence...we are ALL waiting.

You first. You haven't given us any evidence apart from the existence of a ruin and a menorah. You have shown no link between the two, and no link between either one and Atlantis.

Now, if you want an alternative theory:
The ruins in Spain are an Iberian settlement from the Bronze Age.
Circles and arches are among the most common of decorations, so no special link to a long dead advanced civilisation can be inferred without more evidence.
Other concentric circles in the region are said to represent carvings of shields. Carving a ubiquitous symbol that is also a symbol of protection and strength is more likely than carving a super stylized representation of the wrong half of a long lost mythical city that has no ties to the settlement that was found.
The menorah? There is nothing tying the Jews to Bronze Age Spain. The only 'link' you present is that both use curved lines (one three, and the other five, but for some reason that doesn't matter to you). The allegation that God showed Moses a pattern does not mean there was an actual pattern on a mountain anymore than there was an actual YHWH. Even if we say the Jews found some kind of pattern to base their lamp stand on, there is nothing to suggest that it was the pattern from the Spanish ruins.
Because of all of the botanical motifs, it appears that the 'pattern' the menorah was based on, was a stylized tree. Not a stylized city map that has never been found anywhere.

As for evidence? I'll tell you what you told us: the sources are out there, go look and come back to us later. Don't expect me to provide evidence for my own claims.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Teachers DON'T make up history. They retell it to fit their lesson plan.

We disagree. Plato was not a liar, a peddler of falsehoods, nor is he akin to J.K. Rowling.

Strawman. No-one is saying that Plato was a liar. We are saying (and you still have not addressed the evidence I posted about this) that he was using Atlantis as a metaphor, in a fictional story intended to teach a life lesson.
Not only have you not addressed the evidence that this is the case, you have yet to present any evidence that Plato was a historian, and that this passage in particular was meant as a factual historical account. Perhaps you would like to remedy this omission.

 

[Craig4]

Repeating myself AGAIN:

You don't have to have heard the phrase "Just Do It." to wear Nikes.

Repeating it won't tie your menorah to your Atlantis. You know that the Jews used the menorah but that's it. There's nothing to associate it to Atlantis.

 

[Craig4]

Until an alternative theory arises with 'better' evidence, Atlantis is the best possible conclusion we have at the moment.

But again, again, AGAIN...please do provide an alternative theory with corresponding evidence...we are ALL waiting.

But you've produced no evidence to tie the menorah to Your Atlantis. You've made some rather odd suppositions about Plato but no evidence.

 

[King of the Americas]

...

The question, as you can see above, is pointing out that Plato was (by your logic) wrong about almost every aspect of Atlantis (size, shape, location, age, etc.) and you responded by saying that's okay because you take everything into account.

....

Forgive Plato. While one of the world's greatest thinkers, he was plagued by historic limitations. His 'world' was much smaller than our's. He had no sense of how big Asia truly was or where the Atlantic ended.

You're misquoting me...

I said ALL historical accounts have to be mined for truth. EVERY single source history has errors, multiple ones. Human perception, biases, language, and a myriad of other problems arise when trying to decipher fact from fiction.

If we were to throw out every single historical account the contained errors we have nothing but an empty tub, with a baby suffering exposure outside the window you just tossed he/she through.

AGAIN, don't do that.

 

[King of the Americas]

But you've produced no evidence to tie the menorah to Your Atlantis. You've made some rather odd suppositions about Plato but no evidence.

Seriously, stop.

You can disagree with the conclusions drawn by Cameron and National Geographic, but it is the Everest of Ignorance to say "no evidence" has been provided.

Even if this is THE weakest argument ever postulated with the weakest evidence ever collected, it would be better than than the "it's just a lamp" explanation offered.

Again, this is the best possible explanation for where the pattern of the menorah came from.

If you have a better explanation with more evidence, please do present it here, now.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Forgive Plato. While one of the world's greatest thinkers, he was plagued by historic limitations. His 'world' was much smaller than our's. He had no sense of how big Asia truly was or where the Atlantic ended.

Yes he did... Asia in his day generally meant the Anatolian peninsula. It was very well known to Greeks of his day how big that was, because they traveled and traded all over the place and had settled parts of it.

I said ALL historical accounts have to be mined for truth. EVERY single source history has errors, multiple ones. Human perception, biases, language, and a myriad of other problems arise when trying to decipher fact from fiction.

If we were to throw out every single historical account the contained errors we have nothing but an empty tub, with a baby suffering exposure outside the window you just tossed he/she through.

AGAIN, don't do that.

But if you yourself say that Plato was wrong about the dating, location, size, shape and international influence of Atlantis, then what 'truth' remains to be mined? What was he correct about?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Even if this is THE weakest argument ever postulated with the weakest evidence ever collected, it would be better than than the "it's just a lamp" explanation offered.

Again, this is the best possible explanation for where the pattern of the menorah came from.

Making up stuff that is not supported by evidence is not an explanation.
You have not shown that the menorah was adopted from anywhere, much less from a village in Spain. You have asserted it, thats all.

If vague associations based on general shapes are enough, then I can claim that the Eiffel Tower was built as a temple to the Egyptian bull god Apis.
The Eiffel Tower kind of looks like a capital A with a pointy bit on top. The A looks like a bull's head upside down. Tadaa...
That's the kind of 'evidence' you're presenting.
Actually, it's better, because we know the A was ultimately based on a Phoenician letter that evolved from a hieroglyph that did represent a bull's head.

 

[King of the Americas]

... Asia in his day generally meant the Anatolian peninsula...

You've made progress.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

You've made progress.

Quit the condescension... I've already told you this twice before, but you ignored it and claimed that 'Plato wouldn't know how big Asia was'.
It's not that I am making progress, it's that you are refusing to make progress.
The fact that you respond like a petulant child to a simple correction shows this.

So, any response to any of the pertinent things people have said? Or are you just going to insult people in the hope that you can distract us?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

So, once again, at what point in history were humans balls with 4 arms, legs and two heads?

After all, Plato said so in one of his dialogs, so it must be true?


In all seriousness though, why are you so resistant to the fact that Plato used metaphors and non-historical fiction to get a point across? It was common for all greek philosophers to do so. The fables of Aesop are of course even the archetype of these stories.

 

[Mojo]

Even if this is THE weakest argument ever postulated with the weakest evidence ever collected, it would be better than than the "it's just a lamp" explanation offered.

Why?

 

[Belz...]

Even if this is THE weakest argument ever postulated with the weakest evidence ever collected, it would be better than than the "it's just a lamp" explanation offered.

Well, no. By definition, it would be worse, since it is the WEAKEST, making the "lamp" explanation stronger automatically.

You know, logic?