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Destiny and Free will

Myriad said:
Emre, this is my preferred definition of free will. As I've said before, it's not a very useful definition when it comes to deciding whether some specific being has free will or not, because it's impossible to create identical circumstances to test the proposition.

But it's a very useful definition when evaluating claims such as yours. Your claim is that even though I have free will, God knows and has always known what choices I would make. But that contradicts the definition of free will. It claims I could not
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Let's say you now have options A and B in front of you, and you are going to choose one of them. You cannot choose both; you will choose one. Let's say you chose option A. You could have chosen option B with your free will, but you chose option A. God knows the choice you will make with your free will. You have the freedom to choose option B, but you will not choose it. To be able to do something is different from doing it, and this situation is the result of free will. Look, I know that you wrote the answer above. You could have not written this answer, but you did. Our knowing does not affect your free will.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Let's say you now have options A and B in front of you, and you are going to choose one of them. You cannot choose both; you will choose one. Let's say you chose option A. You could have chosen option B with your free will, but you chose option A. God knows the choice you will make with your free will. You have the freedom to choose option B, but you will not choose it. To be able to do something is different from doing it, and this situation is the result of free will. Look, I know that you wrote the answer above. You could have not written this answer, but you did. Our knowing does not affect your free will.
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Then it was predetermined, and the opposite of free will. It is only free will if God or others can only say "the odds are overwhelming that he will choose A, but because of free will, he might surprise us."
 
Thermal said:
Then it was predetermined, and the opposite of free will. It is only free will if God or others can only say "the odds are overwhelming that he will choose A, but because of free will, he might surprise us."
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No, knowing the future means that God knows the choice you will make with your free will. There is nothing predetermined. You chose with your free will. Just as we now know that you wrote the answer above with your own free will.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
No, knowing the future means that God knows the choice you will make with your free will. There is nothing predetermined. You chose with your free will. Just as we now know that you wrote the answer above with your own free will.
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If God (or anyome) knows the choice in advance, then it is by definition predetermined.

Sorry Charlie. As soon as you say "know the future" you're also saying "no free will".
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Let's say you now have options A and B in front of you, and you are going to choose one of them. You cannot choose both; you will choose one. Let's say you chose option A. You could have chosen option B with your free will, but you chose option A. God knows the choice you will make with your free will. You have the freedom to choose option B, but you will not choose it. To be able to do something is different from doing it, and this situation is the result of free will. Look, I know that you wrote the answer above. You could have not written this answer, but you did. Our knowing does not affect your free will.
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I know this is what you're arguing, but this argument contradicts itself. You claim I could choose option B, but In a reality in which God already knows I'll choose option A, and that God is inerrant, I actually cannot choose option B. If I think I can, I am wrong. If you think I can, you are wrong.

It's like saying if I lift a mouse into the air, and let it go, it can choose with its free will to fall to the ground or to rise into the air. With my foreknowledge of gravity I already know it will fall, but I insist it could have chosen to rise anyhow. Gravity eliminates the mouse's free will to rise or fall; inerrant divine foreknowledge of my choices (if it exists) eliminates my free will to choose B.
 
Thermal said:
If God (or anyome) knows the choice in advance, then it is by definition predetermined.

Sorry Charlie. As soon as you say "know the future" you're also saying "no free will".
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No, there is nothing predetermined. God knows what you will choose with your free will.
 
Myriad said:
I know this is what you're arguing, but this argument contradicts itself. You claim I could choose option B, but In a reality in which God already knows I'll choose option A, and that God is inerrant, I actually cannot choose option B. If I think I can, I am wrong. If you think I can, you are wrong.

It's like saying if I lift a mouse into the air, and let it go, it can choose with its free will to fall to the ground or to rise into the air. With my foreknowledge of gravity I already know it will fall, but I insist it could have chosen to rise anyhow. Gravity eliminates the mouse's free will to rise or fall; inerrant divine foreknowledge of my choices (if it exists) eliminates my free will to choose B.
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No, you can choose option B, but you won't. You will choose option A with your free will. You could do the exact opposite, but you won't. To be able to do something is different from doing it.
 
You can choose either option A or option B. But I know you're going to choose option A.

Then I'll choose option B.

I knew you were going to do that.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
No, there is nothing predetermined. God knows what you will choose with your free will.
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If he knows you will choose it, then the future is already cast.

It's really not something you can just repeat your way out of by saying he knows what your free will choice will be.

Additionally, if he knows the future, he doesn't need to subcontract our genitalia to testify against us on Judgement Day. He could just fast forward to the verdict reading in the future.

You really haven't given this much thought, have you?
 
Emre_1974tr said:
No, His will desires that we make and implement our decisions freely. And by virtue of His infinite power, we were created from nothing, meaning we are entirely separate from Him—both physically and in terms of our will. Otherwise, created beings would be a part of Him, an illusion; in other words, they would not exist.

The ability of God to create beings and wills external to Himself does not limit Him. On the contrary, it demonstrates that He possesses limitless power. If created beings and wills had to be a part of Him, it would mean that God cannot create from nothing, i.e., He is incapable of creation, which would indeed make Him limited. But God is limitless, and therefore He can create from nothing—both free will and beings.

So, you possess both free will and are physically separate from God. If it were not so, you would be a part of God, and shirk (associating partners with Him) would not be a sin. But the situation is the very opposite; in reality, all created beings are entirely separate from Him, and that is why associating partners with Him is the greatest sin.
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The highlighted is false and in no possible situation can it ever be true. As a result everything after it is meaningless. Your religion is intellectually bankrupt.

The abrahamic faiths simply cannot survive free will because of the all powerful and all knowing nature of their argued god*. Either yhwh/god/allah is as described and we don't have free will or we do have free will and the description is a lie (assuming the god exists, of course), you cannot have both in either a logical or physical sense.

*That's another impossibility, but one we're not arguing here.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Let's say you now have options A and B in front of you, and you are going to choose one of them. You cannot choose both; you will choose one. Let's say you chose option A. You could have chosen option B with your free will, but you chose option A. God knows the choice you will make with your free will. You have the freedom to choose option B, but you will not choose it. To be able to do something is different from doing it, and this situation is the result of free will. Look, I know that you wrote the answer above. You could have not written this answer, but you did. Our knowing does not affect your free will.
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If god knows ahead of time (the only meaningful definition of know in this case) what option you will pick, you cannot have a choice in a meaningful sense. If god knows you will go left, you cannot choose to go right.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
God just switches off Free Will whenever he wants, according to the Bible.
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The Quran also states this, but this intervention in free will is not arbitrary; it happens in accordance with what you deserve. In other words, you are led astray or guided to the right path based on the choices you make with your own free will. I show these in my writing with details and evidence.
 
Olmstead said:
Does God create a person at all then, or did he just set things in motion billions of years ago (or thousands, if you prefer)? How much direct influence does God have in the creation of a particular person?
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If you believe in evolutionary creation, that too is entirely the creation of Allah. The fact that it is a long-term or gradual process does not mean that something happens on its own. Again, it is Allah Himself who brings about every deed and event. By the way, concerning the creation of the universe, the Quran does not mention a restrictive timeline of thousands of years like the Bible; it points to a much longer timescale:

www.miracles-of-quran.com

Age Of Universe In Quran.

Age Of Universe in Quran.
www.miracles-of-quran.com www.miracles-of-quran.com
 
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