Merged Depleted uranium

[The Fool]

I know that you are going to ignore this but I think it is worth a shot. Fool, do you have a logical argument to support your belief? Anything besides specious arguments?

I will continue to ignore your baiting....get used to it.

My argument is simply a defence to the initial tone of this thread and ongoing bashing that is being administered to anyone who says no thanks to more DU being spread around. Thats why I used the 3 questions which are designed to highlight a number of things...that there is no logical argument that supports the proposition that it is irrational to not wish to increase your Radiation dose. There is no logical argument that supports the claim that the use of DU in a battlefield does anything but increase the radiation in that area. There is no logical argument that supports the claim that increased radiation is anything other than undesirable.

ok...back to bashing those that don't want extra Uranium where people live.

 

[RandFan]

I will continue to ignore your baiting....get used to it.

Cool I'll keep pointing out your lack of critical thinking. I think we get each other just fine.

My argument is simply a defense to the initial tone of this thread and ongoing bashing that is being administered to anyone who says no thanks to more DU being spread around.

That is NOT an argument. This is just a reason for your responses.

Thats why I used the 3 questions which are designed to highlight a number of things...that there is no logical argument that supports the proposition that it is irrational to not wish to increase your Radiation dose.

These 3 questions could be asked of many thousands of things around us all of the time. Focusing on a single item without offering any evidence IS irrational.

There is no logical argument that supports the claim that the use of DU in a battlefield does anything but increase the radiation in that area.

The problem is that it is the only thing that you are concerned about however there are many other things including carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and thousands of other chemicals. I ask over and over why you don't worry about these issues when it is likely that they others that are far more dangerous.

There is no logical argument that supports the claim that increased radiation is anything other than undesirable.

There is no logical argument that supports the claim that increased carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, for that matter methane in the atmosphere is anything other than undesirable.

ok...back to bashing those that don't want extra Uranium where people live.

No, back to being skeptical and questioning those who would spread fear without evidence.

 

[RandFan]

What is your response to the proposition that adding even large amounts of DU to the environment will lower the radiation dose of anyone living there?

I'm not an expert and I couldn't say for sure, it could be specious but there is a basis for it. Do you know that DU is used as a radiation shield? Did you know that many of the materials in our environment emit radiation? Many of the materials emit far more radiation than DU. The question that you need to answer is why not?

 

[The Fool]

That is NOT an argument. This is just a reason for your responses.

we are starting to sound like a python sketch.

These 3 questions could be asked of many thousands of things around us all of the time. Focusing on a single item without offering any evidence IS irrational.

There is plenty of evidence that confirms what I say..just don't confuse what I say with what other people spin it into.

The problem is that it is the only thing that you are concerned about however there are many other things including carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and thousands of other chemicals. I ask over and over why you don't worry about these issues when it is likely that they others that are far more dangerous.

I worry about many things, I also worry about people who suggest that because there is something worse In the world I should accept something I find unacceptable. This is the old....how can you worry about xxxx in the face of world hunger (or some other thing) line.

There is no logical argument that supports the claim that increased carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, for that matter methane in the atmosphere is anything other than undesirable.

so you don't support the argument that just a little bit more doesn't matter with co2 but do support it with DU?


No, back to being skeptical and questioning those who would spread fear without evidence.

I prefer to think about it as spreading awareness rather than fear. I don't remember fearmongering in this thread...can you point out where I have?

I would sum up your position as being anyone who complains about Armies leaving uranium behind when they leave are simply ill informed illogical whiny woos....Is that a strawman? Because I think its a very dangerous attitude.

The two subjects are apples and oranges (I know)...but I can't help thinking back to the late 60s when I was told by the US army that it was completely safe for them to spray me with 245T and 24D. I was told By a US army "expert" that I could drink the stuff and it would have no effect on me. Sometimes, just sometimes...we end up being wrong about things.

 

[RandFan]

My argument is simply a defence to the initial tone of this thread and ongoing bashing that is being administered to anyone who says no thanks to more DU being spread around.

You know I have been racking my brain trying to think of the last time I dealt with your style of argument. I just remembered.

When the whole Ryan White affair happened my brother-in-law said that had he lived in White's home town he would have fought to keep Ryan out of School. I argued with him that there was no evidence that Ryan significantly increased the likelihood of danger to the other children.

At the time AIDS was a death sentence. If the experts had said that there was any significant evidence that there was harm I WOULD have agreed. Ryan's tragedy simply would not have been worth the risk.

Why did my brother-in-law and I differ? The usual, politics, bigotry, ignorance.

Now, why do people make such ridiculous specious arguments about DU? Why is there no objective evidence but plenty of fear?

It's a well understood phenomenon actually.

HOW DANGEROUS IS RADIATION?

But an irrational fear of radiation is difficult to combat through education. Two reasons for this are that radiation concerns are derived from primarily political motives and from health concerns.

I'll be the first to admit that killing people with DU is very different from the needs of a young man who simply wanted to go to school. That doesn't change the fact that your argument and those who tried to keep Ryan out of school were both based on fear without evidence.

 

[RandFan]

That is NOT an argument. This is just a reason for your responses.

we are starting to sound like a python sketch.

It's apropos I'll agree. The problem is that you are the one gainsaying.

There is plenty of evidence that confirms what I say..just don't confuse what I say with what other people spin it into.

What do you say and what is the evidence?

DU is radioactive. It is also used as radiation shields. Why do you suppose that is?

I worry about many things, I also worry about people who suggest that because there is something worse In the world I should accept something I find unacceptable.

This is a misrepresentation of my position. I'm saying that the lack of concern of worse things make that which you find unacceptable an irrational unacceptence.

This is the old....how can you worry about xxxx in the face of world hunger (or some other thing) line.

No, it's the "why are you worried about the salt in your cyanide?"

so you don't support the argument that just a little bit more doesn't matter with co2 but do support it with DU?

Could you rephrase the question?

I prefer to think about it as spreading awareness rather than fear. I don't remember fearmongering in this thread...can you point out where I have?

Yeah, claiming that DU is a significant threat is just that.

I would sum up your position as being anyone who complains about Armies leaving uranium behind when they leave are simply ill informed illogical whiny woos....Is that a strawman? Because I think its a very dangerous attitude.

I would need more information to offer a response.

The two subjects are apples and oranges (I know)...but I can't help thinking back to the late 60s when I was told by the US army that it was completely safe for them to spray me with 245T and 24D. I was told By a US army "expert" that I could drink the stuff and it would have no effect on me. Sometimes, just sometimes...we end up being wrong about things.

Could you explain what 245T and 24D are and why they sprayed you with it?

 

[RandFan]

The two subjects are apples and oranges (I know)...but I can't help thinking back to the late 60s when I was told by the US army that it was completely safe for them to spray me with 245T and 24D. I was told By a US army "expert" that I could drink the stuff and it would have no effect on me. Sometimes, just sometimes...we end up being wrong about things.

One more thing. Would you admit that our understanding of radiation has increased significantly in the last 30 - 40 years?

 

[The Fool]

You know I have been racking my brain trying to think of the last time I dealt with your style of argument. I just remembered.

When the whole Ryan White affair happened my brother-in-law said that had he lived in White's home town he would have fought to keep Ryan out of School. I argued with him that there was no evidence that Ryan significantly increased the likelihood of danger to the other children.

At the time AIDS was a death sentence. If the experts had said that there was any significant evidence that there was harm I WOULD have agreed. Ryan's tragedy simply would not have been worth the risk.

Why did my brother-in-law and I differ? The usual, politics, bigotry, ignorance.

Now, why do people make such ridiculous specious arguments about DU? Why is there no objective evidence but plenty of fear?

It's a well understood phenomenon actually.

I'll be the first to admit that killing people with DU is very different from the needs of a young man who simply wanted to go to school. That doesn't change the fact that your argument and those who tried to keep Ryan out of school were both based on fear without evidence.

you really should have warned me that you wanted to factor in the physical and mental well being of the DU rounds....that is the only way I can see how the two issues compare....how about the prospect of scattering DU dust around the school , happy happy for that to happen? Ken believes doing this would actually decrease thier radiation dosage levels....you still haven't said if you also believe that one.

I've also got a story for you..... My local newspaper recently had a story of a guy who was caught taking a dump in our towns water supply dam...its a huge dam. He was fined, its illegal to dump in the water supply....Now why do we have such an ignorant uninformed law? The chances of anyone ever getting sick from one turd in a huge dam is zero....why do we have such fear mongering laws?

 

[RandFan]

you really should have warned me that you wanted to factor in the physical and mental well being of the DU rounds.

Radiation is dangerous.
AIDS is dangerous.

People feared other people with aids even when there was no evidence of increased danger.
People fear DU even though there is no evidence to support that fear.

People fear people with AIDS because of politics, ignorance and fear.
People fear DU because of politics, ignorance and fear.

When asked for evidence:
People made specious arguments to support their fear of people with AIDS.
People make specious arguments to support their fear of DU.

 

[kalen]

Radiation is dangerous.
AIDS is dangerous.

People feared other people with aids even when there was no evidence of increased danger.
People fear DU even though there is no evidence to support that fear.

People fear people with AIDS because of politics, ignorance and fear.
People fear DU because of politics, ignorance and fear.

When asked for evidence:
People made specious arguments to support their fear of people with AIDS.
People make specious arguments to support their fear of DU.

Do you have any evidence for these claims?

 

[RandFan]

Now why do we have such an ignorant uninformed law? The chances of anyone ever getting sick from one turd in a huge dam is zero....why do we have such fear mongering laws?

The law does not exist to fine the occasional scofflaw. The law exists to keep such incidents to a minimum. Before the Federal Government started cracking down in the Wasatch Front (where I grew up) some of the wilderness areas were turned into a garbage dump with trash, feces, toilet paper, etc. all over the place. When I was young I volunteered to help clean up some of the wilderness area.

Now the occasional fine is all that is needed to keep such incidents to a minimum. Such an effort had an effect on rivers and other areas. At first the enforcement had to give out lots of tickets but eventually it slowed down to a trickle.

That's how it works.

 

[RandFan]

Do you have any evidence for these claims?

Radiation is dangerous: University of Michigan Health Physics

AIDS is dangerous: HIV/AIDS Bureau

People feared other people with aids even when there was no evidence of increased danger: HIV/AIDS Bureau

People fear DU even though there is no evidence to support that fear: Please see AWPrime, The Fool and others in this thread.

People fear people with AIDS because of politics, ignorance and fear: HIV/AIDS Bureau

People fear DU because of politics, ignorance and fear: Please note that the arguments made in this thread are by those who have a left leaning bent (AFIK), have argued from ignorance and have stated that their reason for opposing DU is that it is potentially harmful.

People made specious arguments to support their fear of people with AIDS: HIV/AIDS Bureau

People make specious arguments to support their fear of DU: There are countless arguments in this thread.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bruce]

 

[RandFan]

Got it. I can't help myself.

 

[The Fool]

maybe you would be more comfortable in the Humor forum?

 

[The Fool]

Radiation is dangerous: University of Michigan Health Physics

AIDS is dangerous: HIV/AIDS Bureau

People feared other people with aids even when there was no evidence of increased danger: HIV/AIDS Bureau

People fear DU even though there is no evidence to support that fear: Please see AWPrime, The Fool and others in this thread.

People fear people with AIDS because of politics, ignorance and fear: HIV/AIDS Bureau

People fear DU because of politics, ignorance and fear: Please note that the arguments made in this thread are by those who have a left leaning bent (AFIK), have argued from ignorance and have stated that their reason for opposing DU is that it is potentially harmful.

People made specious arguments to support their fear of people with AIDS: HIV/AIDS Bureau

People make specious arguments to support their fear of DU: There are countless arguments in this thread.

Hope this helps.

to be honest randfan it doesn't help. Niether does your behavior in this thread.

Maybe I should just join you in saying that anyone disagrees with me it can only be due to politics ignorance and fear...maybe I can chuck nya nya nya on the end to cap off my argument.

If you have a problem with the large numbers of people who are not enthusiastic about your free offer of depleted uranium there is not much I can do about that. If calling them names helps you work through the feeling of rejection...so be it

 

[RandFan]

to be honest randfan it doesn't help. Niether does your behavior in this thread.

I didn't make specious arguments.

Maybe I should just join you in saying that anyone disagrees with me it can only be due to politics ignorance and fear...maybe I can chuck nya nya nya on the end to cap off my argument.

I'll admit that I don't really know your motivations. I have a good idea of your politics. I understand the points made. I know that you have read the arguments. I know that you have only offered specious arguments. I know that the evidence shows that there is no significant harm of DU.

If you have a problem with the large numbers of people who are not enthusiastic about your free offer of depleted uranium there is not much I can do about that.

"A problem"?

I don't have a problem with the large numbers of people who are not enthusiastic about Friday the 13th.

I don't have a problem with the large numbers of people who are not enthusiastic about black cats crossing their paths.

I don't have a problem with the large numbers of people who are not enthusiastic about breaking mirrors in their homes.

I don't have a problem with the large numbers of people who fear the 13th floor.

I don't have a problem with the large numbers of people who are scared of ghosts.

I don't have a problem with the large numbers of people who are not enthusiastic about public toilets but who don't care about door knobs.

I DON'T have a problem with the large numbers of people who are not enthusiastic about DU.

Get the idea.

If calling them names helps you work through the feeling of rejection...so be it

I call 'em as I see 'em. If you have to project your inadequacies on me...so be it.

 

[The Fool]

One more thing. Would you admit that our understanding of radiation has increased significantly in the last 30 - 40 years?

yes...do we know everything yet? especially dealing with the effects of elevated but still low levels of radiation on humans over..... say.....a hundred years?

 

[The Fool]

Could you explain what 245T and 24D are and why they sprayed you with it?

They are defoliants...and I was standing where they were spraying.

 

[Mycroft]

What if we mixed DU with Dihydrogen Monoxide?