Democracy in Georgia

[Darth Rotor]

Nobody cares? That seems like quite a nice care package for the little dirtbag's regime:

The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Clue time, Empress: Europeans these days prefer to spend treasure rather than blood. It wasn't always so.

DR

 

[Childlike Empress]

Hopefully Yankistan will follow soon.

 

[geni]

Clue time, Empress: Europeans these days prefer to spend treasure rather than blood. It wasn't always so.

DR

Nah europeans (for example say france) are still fairly happy with the blood bit. It just isn't polite to talk about it (well that and most of the world doesn't know where N'Djamena is which is not unreasonable).

Nah European aid money in this case is a reasonable move. US is doing much the same. It effectively works to keep georgia pro western to an extent in a way Russia can't do anything about.

 

[geni]

And all they deserved, IMO. What they don't deserve is NATO membership.

DR

While geography requires that Georgia have a friendly relationship with Russia we would like them to be pro-western. NATO membership would be too high a price for that.

 

[CapelDodger]

Nobody cares? That seems like quite a nice care package for the little dirtbag's regime:




The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

The stench of diplomacy-speak does make you gag until you get used to it. It's an undeniable fact that Saakashvili and/or his army abandoned peaceful resolution first. However great the provocation, that's still a fact.

Regardng the care package, $4.5 billion over three years isn't enormous money these days, and it's only promised. On past experience much of that Western money will be provided in kind by Western advisors, and little on actually rehousing the displaced or creating jobs for them. Unless Georgia gets a feisty government that really cares about Georgians.

 

[dudalb]

When Russia makes it's next move, it will be interesting to see what the Putin Apologists come up with.

 

[CapelDodger]

Clue time, Empress: Europeans these days prefer to spend treasure rather than blood. It wasn't always so.

DR

Europeans have always spent more treasure than blood outside Europe. Within Europe they've spent far more blood than treasure in making possible the modern world.

 

[CapelDodger]

When Russia makes it's next move, it will be interesting to see what the Putin Apologists come up with.

Let us know how that works out for you. You could be in for a long wait.

 

[geni]

When Russia makes it's next move, it will be interesting to see what the Putin Apologists come up with.

No idea. Why don't you ask them?

 

[CapelDodger]

While geography requires that Georgia have a friendly relationship with Russia we would like them to be pro-western. NATO membership would be too high a price for that.

NATO no-no goes without saying. Europeans have enough experience not to enter lightly into alliances that can drag you willy-nilly into a land-war with Russia. See how that worked out for the Germans in 1914, or the Rumanians in 1941. Or anybody that had to march east with Napoleon in 1812.

Wouldn't it be better if Georgia was just pro-Georgians?

 

[geni]

Wouldn't it be better if Georgia was just pro-Georgians?

Small countries long since ceased to have that luxury.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

When Russia makes it's next move, it will be interesting to see what the Putin Apologists come up with.

How is pointing out the facts of an undemocratic country being an apologist for Vlad?

 

[CapelDodger]

Small countries long since ceased to have that luxury.

I think there's space for non-aligned countries now the Cold War is over.

In the short history of modern Georgia there's been too much concentration on territory and far too little on the people. Saakashvili has made a political career out of goading the Russians and sucking up to a US faction, which again is of disbenefit to the Georgian people.

The Georgians' best policy is an equal and open relationship with everybody, and it shouldn't be too difficult for them. It's always been an outward-looking place, and has a cohesive and relatively successful diaspora. With its position between the Black Sea and the Caspian, its natural resources, and its educated population it should be very prosperous. All it needs is honest and capable government.

 

[SDC]

Georgia's position reminds me of an old wisecrack about Mexico. Poor Mexico; so far from god, so close to the United States.

Substitute Russia for US, and as for god, well, ...

ETA: Let me add that there is a fair chance that Putin will get tired of waiting for a sufficiently "demokraticheskii" president and government to arise in Georgia and will do what he did with Chechnya. Which is OK, right?

 

[CapelDodger]

Georgia's position reminds me of an old wisecrack about Mexico. Poor Mexico; so far from god, so close to the United States.

Substitute Russia for US, and as for god, well, ...

So far from the coffee-pot, so close to the boss ... (A secular version )

There's no question that Russia can walk all over Georgia at will. They just did, after all. And the US could walk all over Mexico. Large swathes of the US are walked-over Mexico.

Georgia and Russia have many common interests; Russians like Georgian wine, for instance, and Georgians like selling it to them. And neither of them like the anarchic mountain-folk that live in-between. It's a relationship that could and should work.

The neo-con experiment that was Saakashvili's Georgia is about to have the plug pulled. No more PNAC castles in the air. Georgia was the final fling.

 

[CapelDodger]

ETA: Let me add that there is a fair chance that Putin will get tired of waiting for a sufficiently "demokraticheskii" president and government to arise in Georgia and will do what he did with Chechnya. Which is OK, right?

There's no parallel between Chechnya and Georgia. The Chechnyan problem lies in the mountains between Georgia and Russia.

Civilisation's task is to keep anarchic goat-botherers confined to their mountains. Be they Chechens, Montenegrins, Pathans, or any other variety.

Georgians have been civilised since way back, even before Catherine the Great. When the Russian Empire turned up, Russians and Georgians clasped hands across the mountains. They are natural allies.

 

[moon1969]

Even if Mikheil Saakashvili maybe isn"t a democratic leader. What gives Russia, Putin and USA the right to intervene in internal affairs of Georgia. USA, Russia and the world community should support the georgian people. If they don"t want Mikheil Saakashvili to be their leader then Mikheil Saakashvili will not be their leader. Let the people decide. Second. Why didn"t Putin, Russia and the USA say anything when Eduard Shevardnadze was the president of Georgia? Putin just wants somebody who is pro-russian. If the new leader of Georgia would be oppressive like Eduard Shevardnadze was then what would Putin say? Are you saying that leaders like Eduard Kokoity and Sergei Bagapsh are democratic leaders? What about the georgian civilians? If Mikheil Saakashvili is a war criminal then so are Eduard Kokoity, Sergei Bagapsh and Vladimir Putin.

 

[moon1969]

Who is more democratic leader Mikheil Saakashvili or Alexander Lukashenko? Mikheil Saakashvili maybe uses methods that are wrong but Alexander Lukashenko is a dictator.

 

[geni]

Even if Mikheil Saakashvili maybe isn"t a democratic leader. What gives Russia, Putin and USA the right to intervene in internal affairs of Georgia.

Several thousand nuclear weapons and geography that makes getting there posible.

USA, Russia and the world community should support the georgian people.

I'm sure russia would be happy to if the georgian people support or at least are friendly towards them. Supporting people who have just invaded an area ocupied by your "peacekeepers" and killing some of them in the process is not easy.

If they don"t want Mikheil Saakashvili to be their leader then Mikheil Saakashvili will not be their leader. Let the people decide. Second. Why didn"t Putin, Russia and the USA say anything when Eduard Shevardnadze was the president of Georgia? Putin just wants somebody who is pro-russian.

Would probably accept russia neutral. Activly anti russia is never going to go down well with Russia.

If the new leader of Georgia would be oppressive like Eduard Shevardnadze was then what would Putin say?

Nothing. That isn't his problem.

Are you saying that leaders like Eduard Kokoity and Sergei Bagapsh are democratic leaders? What about the georgian civilians? If Mikheil Saakashvili is a war criminal then so are Eduard Kokoity, Sergei Bagapsh and Vladimir Putin.

Oh probably but Putin won see. You have to lose to be a war criminal.

 

[geni]

Who is more democratic leader Mikheil Saakashvili or Alexander Lukashenko? Mikheil Saakashvili maybe uses methods that are wrong but Alexander Lukashenko is a dictator.

So? No one is really suggesting that we in the west should support Lukashenko. They were however suggesting we support Georgia. Well untill everyone other than the war nerds lost interest (Georgia it's all over bar figureing out what happened).