Democracy in Georgia

[senorpogo]

Ballot-box stuffing, beatings of opposition activists, biased news coverage and government officials campaigning for President Mikheil Saakashvili's party tainted Georgia's parliamentary elections this year, Europe's main election watchdog said on Tuesday.

What should I make of this? Part of the ongoing Western story about the Russian/Georgian War has been that Russia saw Georgia's inspiring democracy as a threat. Not to say that I ever believed that, but how can one even try to pass off that lie when the facts aren't even in your favor?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/georgia_osce_dc

 

[gtc]

Who suggested that Georgia's democracy was seen as a threat by Russia?

 

[senorpogo]

Who suggested that Georgia's democracy was seen as a threat by Russia?

GWB

Unfortunately, Russia has tended to view the expansion of freedom and democracy as a threat to its interests.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/08/20080815.html

 

[moon1969]

First Mikheil Saakashvili is not a saint. We still should not believe every bad thing that people. What if those are only lies about Mikheil Saakashvili? Anyway Mikheil Saakashvili is a great reformer. Mikheil Saakashvili is pro-western and pro-Israel. Why do you think Moscow doesn"t like Mikheil Saakashvili? Eduard Shevardnadze was the predecessor of Mikheil Saakashvili. Eduard Shevardnadze was very pro-Russian and pro-Putin. Eduard Shevardnadze was the foreign minister of Mikhail Gorbachev. You should compare Eduard Shevardnadze and Mikheil Saakashvili. Who is more corrupt? Who is more democratic? Who is more of a reformer? Its like in Iran people hated the Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi but loved dictators like Hafez al-Assad and Gamal Abdel Nasser. Or what about the way people hated Augusto Pinochet or hate Henry Kissinger but don"t say anything about people like Fidel Castro, Kim Jong-il and Robert Mugabe? And people like Badri Patarkatsishvili or Irakli Okruashvili are no saints.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I found it funny when American politicians were praising Georgia for its democracy when it is almost literally a one-party state.

 

[moon1969]

And if someone will replace Mikheil Saakashvili as the president of Georgia then it should be Nino Burjanadze and not Irakli Okruashvili. Nino Burjanadze does not seem to be like Eduard Shevardnadze was.

 

[senorpogo]

And if someone will replace Mikheil Saakashvili as the president of Georgia then it should be Nino Burjanadze and not Irakli Okruashvili. Nino Burjanadze does not seem to be like Eduard Shevardnadze was.

Burjanadze's response to this whole episode has been rather telling. Even she isn't buying what Saakasvili is selling.

http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=343225

Again, my main question is why does the White House try to convince people of a thing that is demonstrably false? Georgia is not a perfect democracy. Fine. I don't think most expect it to be. But why the hyperbole? Why not say - Georgia is not perfect, but that doesn't give Russia the right to infringe on it's sovereignty etc. etc....

It's not the lying. It's the bad lying.

 

[Cleon]

I found it funny when American politicians were praising Georgia for its democracy when it is almost literally a one-party state.

It's nothing new. I remember in 1991 when George HW Bush was talking about "preserving Kuwaiti democracy." Which didn't even pass the laugh test.

 

[Slayhamlet]

GWB



http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/08/20080815.html

A George Bush sound-bite is the "Western story"? I haven't seen that view being pushed anywhere else outside the right-wing blogosphere.

It of course has nothing to do with democracy. Russia sees Georgia's courting NATO as a threat.

 

[senorpogo]

A George Bush sound-bite is the "Western story"? I haven't seen that view being pushed anywhere else outside the right-wing blogosphere.

It of course has nothing to do with democracy. Russia sees Georgia's courting NATO as a threat.

First off, don't diminish it as just a sound bite. That's the President of the United States saying in a prepared speech that Russia views the expansion of democracy as a threat. I should ignore it for some reason?

Secondly, I'll agree that the term "western story" is a clunky phrase.

All I'm saying is that the narrative in the Western press has been, from my point of view, "Russia invades a democratic country".

I can't find any mention of the new OSCE report at CNN or Fox News. Reuters reported it a week ago.

 

[Darth Rotor]

First off, don't diminish it as just a sound bite. That's the President of the United States saying in a prepared speech that Russia views the expansion of democracy as a threat. I should ignore it for some reason?

Secondly, I'll agree that the term "western story" is a clunky phrase.

All I'm saying is that the narrative in the Western press has been, from my point of view, "Russia invades a democratic country".

I can't find any mention of the new OSCE report at CNN or Fox News. Reuters reported it a week ago.

Had Russian tanks rolled toward Atlanta, they might have be credibly accused of invading a democratic country and state.

Or not.

As it is, my giggling may subside soon.

DR

 

[geni]

Again, my main question is why does the White House try to convince people of a thing that is demonstrably false? Georgia is not a perfect democracy. Fine. I don't think most expect it to be. But why the hyperbole? Why not say - Georgia is not perfect, but that doesn't give Russia the right to infringe on it's sovereignty etc. etc....

People prefer simple stories. Plucky little democracy standing up to Putin's russia is a simple story. Well that and it was the story the media was intialy selling (say http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/opinion/11kristol.html http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/opinion/12cornell.html ). Georgia had some good PR agents.

Back peddleing has been ammuseing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/world/europe/07georgia.html

 

[CapelDodger]

Had Russian tanks rolled toward Atlanta, they might have be credibly accused of invading a democratic country and state.

Or not.

As it is, my giggling may subside soon.

DR

The whole episode was tragic, but there are comic elements. The hyperbole as recently as August (references to Czechoslovakia, the New Cold War, Latvia Next, etc.) has just evaporated. The Georgia that can deliver electoral college votes is getting more coverage these days, if only for its rate of reposessions. (The March of Repo-Man may create more Georgian homeless than Sherman's determined efforts. He only went after the white folk, after all.)

The violence hasn't yet stopped in Caucasian Georgia, but it's on the scale that few people paid attention to before August. I'm sure that we'll soon see Saakashvili and his cronies pitched out by much better people. The Milosevich Principle applies.

 

[Darth Rotor]

The violence hasn't yet stopped in Caucasian Georgia

You refer to the part of the state outside of Atlanta, I take it?

(Cleon is gonna zing me for that one, I assure you)

but it's on the scale that few people paid attention to before August. I'm sure that we'll soon see Saakashvili and his cronies pitched out by much better people. .

Better? No. Different? Somewhat. I do not share your optimism that Georgia is a breeding ground of democratic leaders. Hope you are right, however.

The Milosevich Principle applies

So Shali will go to the Hague and die?

DR

 

[CapelDodger]

First off, don't diminish it as just a sound bite. That's the President of the United States saying in a prepared speech that Russia views the expansion of democracy as a threat. I should ignore it for some reason?

As you say, a prepared statement read by the US President at a time of international tension and media hysteria. It wasn't meant to be ignored. This is a Presidency that aspires to Leadership of the Free World.

Secondly, I'll agree that the term "western story" is a clunky phrase.

"Western" is sooo Old Cold War .

All I'm saying is that the narrative in the Western press has been, from my point of view, "Russia invades a democratic country".

I can't find any mention of the new OSCE report at CNN or Fox News. Reuters reported it a week ago.

Financial implosion, impending recession, Presidential Election, oil at $70pb (some people are hurting; even OPEC is back in the news, who expected that?), and nobody cares about Georgia. Fifteen minutes of fame is all they got.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Financial implosion, impending recession, Presidential Election, oil at $70pb (some people are hurting; even OPEC is back in the news, who expected that?), and nobody cares about Georgia. Fifteen minutes of fame is all they got.

And all they deserved, IMO. What they don't deserve is NATO membership.

DR

 

[Cleon]

You refer to the part of the state outside of Atlanta, I take it?

(Cleon is gonna zing me for that one, I assure you)

These days we're calling that area "New New Mexico."

 

[CapelDodger]

You refer to the part of the state outside of Atlanta, I take it?

I've only just twigged the racial connotation. I feel like an innocent abroad .

Better? No. Different? Somewhat. I do not share your optimism that Georgia is a breeding ground of democratic leaders. Hope you are right, however.

I think the situation in Georgia bodes well for a government that honestly serves the interests of the Georgian people. Not a government that pursues NATO membership, or "national sovereignty" over peripheral and antagonistic territory, or gratuitously gets in Russia's face at any opportunity. A Georgia for Georgians.

Saakashvili is more US lawyer than he is Georgian.

So Shali will go to the Hague and die?

DR

That's a different principle entirely. Milosovich was able to commit major war-crimes; Saakashivili was never going to get the opportunity.

Milosovich could lose wars away from home with impunity. When war came home and he lost it he was gone within two years. Leaders get a boost from national solidarity while the war's going on, but it's during the long dragging months afterwards that people ask themselves what it was all for. People thinking long and hard is toxic to nationalist regimes.

 

[CapelDodger]

And all they deserved, IMO. What they don't deserve is NATO membership.

DR

Like we're gonna harness ourselves to any chancer who's big in Tblisi one week? Or a Georgian general who launches his own crusade?

Georgia wasn't going to get NATO membership before August, after August, nor ever. The US wouldn't promote it if they weren't sure of the "Get the [Rule8] outta here!" chorus.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Financial implosion, impending recession, Presidential Election, oil at $70pb (some people are hurting; even OPEC is back in the news, who expected that?), and nobody cares about Georgia. Fifteen minutes of fame is all they got.

Nobody cares? That seems like quite a nice care package for the little dirtbag's regime:

October 22, 2008 MOSCOW — Western donors in Belgium promised on Wednesday to spend about $4.5 billion to rebuild Georgia, whose economy and infrastructure were badly damaged by this summer’s war with Russia.

The sum was more than $1 billion more than the World Bank’s target, and came as a financial crisis rattled the economies of donor nations. The United States pledged the largest amount, $1 billion over three years. An additional $642.8 million will be allocated by the European Commission over the next two years.

José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, said the pledge should send “a strong signal to the world” that its members stand with Georgia.

“The international community believes in and upholds certain values and norms of conduct, and those include the peaceful resolution of disputes,” Mr. Barroso said. [...]

The hypocrisy is breathtaking.