Demand Koran Replace U.S. Constitution

Yes I should preface my remarks by referring to those muslims who are best described as fanataic fundamentalist islamicists as making the demands I refer to. Yup, some muslims. A lot of them, enough of them to cause problems. But yes some. A good example of this is being played out in Lebanon where there are Christians, moderate muslims no doubt and hezbollah. Unfortunately for the rest of moderate muslim and Christian Lebanon the fanatics have the guns and the missiles and apparently also the financial/ tactical and moral support of Iran and Syria's governments.

I think there is a lesson to be learned in the absolutely sad situation unfolding.
 
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Lesson’s to be learned can be found in the pages of recent history. Straw polls create straw results. If I had the answer to the question how to stop this, I wouldn't be discussing it here with you. For now, if religious fanatatics will not worship their gods and their religion except by interfering with the freedom of others, the only option appears to be the course Israel has set for itself on its northern border and in Southern Lebanon. I wish there was another way but when fanatics are willing to kidnap you and lob rockets at you there is little else you can do.

Don, on the treatment of women we can go back to 1978 and this:

http://www.cambridgeclarion.org/press_cuttings/saudi_obs_22jan1978.html

I watched this unfold on teleivison in London. If I were back home in America I would not have been able to see this or the docudrama that came afterwards:

http://www.cjr.org/issues/2003/6/reagans-grossman.asp


And then fast forward to a few years ago and this:

Most shocking to the West was the Taliban's treatment of women. When the Taliban took Kabul, they immediately forbade girls to go to school. Moreover, women were barred from working outside the home, precipitating a crisis in healthcare and education. Women were also prohibited from leaving their home without a male relative—those that did so risked being beaten, even shot, by officers of the "ministry for the protection of virtue and prevention of vice." A woman caught wearing fingernail polish may have had her fingertips chopped off. All this, according to the Taliban, was to safeguard women and their honor.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html

And this essay:

http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/MidEast/05/pittenger/index.html


So you can take your straw polls and do what you want with them. They are meaningless in the face of what actually occurs. Straw polls are beyond anecdotal, you have no way of knowing how truthful or forthright those being polled are. I have “moderate” muslim friends and when they ask me to to go barefoot before entering their homes, and when speaking to my friend’s daughter (e.g. How’s school?) she is quickly silenced by her father (my friend) who tells her to go help her mother, I am uncomfortable by what this portends.

So while my constitution in America allows for freedom of religion and tolerance, and
I subscribe to that, those who are protected by these freedoms should in return respect
mine. Pork is good, reasonably priced food that properly cooked is delicious as well.I will not be told by any religious group that I cannot eat it. If they succeed in having their way with this it is human nature to seek more concessions. That is the lesson. It is a lesson of history and it is a lesson of reality.
We have ample evidence of how far muslims, yes some muslims, can go.
 
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This was Larsen's feeble atempt to derail and throw a mixture of red herrings into the soup pot.

Sure, it's always my fault for derailing the discussion, even though you start this thread by bringing up pork... :rolleyes:

  • Why do you focus only on the NT books? The 10 commandments doesn't apply anymore?

  • Are Christians allowed by their religion to eat human flesh? I'm not talking about the Eucharist, I'm talking about the real act of eating another human being.

  • How will you ensure that you do not drop hams on Lebanon Christian sectors on Fridays?

  • If you are fighting Christian terrorists who believe they have to uphold Lent, would you similarly force-feed them on Lent?

  • What happens when you hit a Muslim that is not Hezbollah? Do you think that other Muslims will appreciate that, even if they are agaist Hezbollah?
 
SteveGrenard, your post puzzles me, I don't understand it.

If you are suggesting that we should keep an eye out for extremist groups and attempt to prevent them becoming a threat then I agree with you but we also have to try and understand why people are drawn to these groups and attempt to do something about it. Merely being scared of different types of people doesn't work.

In the example I gave, one person I spoke to was very concerned about the rise of permissiveness in Western society. Perhaps if this person were to work with conservative and other religious groups on this element then perhaps he can make sure that laws are passed to protect his family. If sufficient people in a society wish to live by a particular set of rules then I guess the rules have to change. I'm sure that a pan-religious group combined with conservatives could attempt to get certain legislation inacted, or other legislation repealed. Of course this would make life worse for me but I guess I have to live by the law of the land (after all I'm not thrilled with our current drugs laws or speed limits) and I can either shut up, fight for my rights or move (the same choice my opponents have).

It's like the example you give. If your muslim friends require you to remove your shoes on entry to their house then you have three options:

- Remove your shoes and enter
- Don't remove your shoes and enter anyway
- Don't enter

If your principles are sufficiently strong that you couldn't bear to remove your shoes merely to comply with a certain set of religious beliefs then I guess you just won't be going to their house in the future.

Treating Islam as a threat may only serve to increase the sense of isolation and disenfranchisement among young muslims. Like any fundamentalists, they are passionately attached to their religion and by marginalising the most important thing in their lives you are, in effect, marginalising them.
 
Sure, it's always my fault for derailing the discussion, even though you start this thread by bringing up pork... :rolleyes:

Why do you focus only on the NT books? The 10 commandments doesn't apply anymore?

Reply: The ten commandments do not deal with pork or any other dietary regulation. The ten commandments are moot in the context of this discussion. They do tell people it is a bad thing to kill, cheat with your neighbor's wife or steal. But they do not tell Christians or anyone for that matter not to eat pork. I am suggesting the pork weapon because it agrees with the ten commandments as it would stop the killing.

Are Christians allowed by their religion to eat human flesh? I'm not talking about the Eucharist, I'm talking about the real act of eating another human being.

Reply: Asked and answered that by saying I do not know whether this is in the OT, NT, Koran, Book of Mormon or any other publication attributed to god. That there is a cultural and in modern times a reasonably sound scientific reason not to do so (search "Kuru") is not disputed.

How will you ensure that you do not drop hams on Lebanon Christian sectors on Fridays?

Reply: By not using the pork based weapon on Fridays where Christians are forbidden from eating meat. The prohibition against eating meat on Fridays is no longer enforced by the church in America as far as I am aware but there are traditional, mostly older Catholics who still follow this.

I would also get a calendar with the religious days prominently inscribed thereon.

If you are fighting Christian terrorists who believe they have to uphold Lent, would you similarly force-feed them on Lent?

Reply: Moot. We are not discussing fighting Christian terrorists. Red herring. Derail.

What happens when you hit a Muslim that is not Hezbollah? Do you think that other Muslims will appreciate that, even if they are against Hezbollah?

Reply: Collateral damage. As someone suggested they can get a dispensation from their iman as innocents. Israel is killing innocent muslims and Christians now in Lebanon. Killing is irreversible. Offending them is reversible and not permanent. The U.S. and Britain are killing innocent muslims in Iraq right now. Offending them is not as permanent as killing them in Iraq either.
 
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Sure, it's always my fault for derailing the discussion, even though you start this thread by bringing up pork... :rolleyes:

  • Why do you focus only on the NT books? The 10 commandments doesn't apply anymore?

  • Are Christians allowed by their religion to eat human flesh? I'm not talking about the Eucharist, I'm talking about the real act of eating another human being.

  • How will you ensure that you do not drop hams on Lebanon Christian sectors on Fridays?

  • If you are fighting Christian terrorists who believe they have to uphold Lent, would you similarly force-feed them on Lent?

  • What happens when you hit a Muslim that is not Hezbollah? Do you think that other Muslims will appreciate that, even if they are agaist Hezbollah?


This is self-parody, right Claus?
 
Reply: The ten commandments do not deal with pork or any other dietary regulation. The ten commandments are moot in the context of this discussion. They do tell people it is a bad thing to kill, cheat with your neighbor's wife or steal. But they do not tell Christians or anyone for that matter not to eat pork.

You are using your own interpretation of what parts of the Bible that are relevant. You. Lose.

Reply: I answered that by syaing I do not know whether this is in the OT, NT, Koran, Book of Mormon or any other publication attributed to god. That there is a cultural and in modern times a reasonably sound scientific reason not to do so (search "Kuru") is not disputed.

There is nothing that allows them to eat human flesh. Since humans is the work of God, you can't eat them. So, there are things that Christians - postJesus - cannot eat.

And yet, you treat Christians more leniently than Jews and Muslims.

Reply: By not using the pork based weapon on Fridays where Christians are forbidden from eating meat. The prohibition against eating meat on Fridays is no longer enforced by the church in America as far as I am aware but there are traditional, mostly older Catholics who still follow this.
I would also get a calendar with the religious days prominently inscribed thereon.

But the hams you drop on Fridays will just lie around, becoming a health hazard, attracting rats and other vermins. You are using the exact same methods as Hannibal, when he bombarded the enemy with venomous snakes, or the Mongol and Turkish armies, when they catapulted dead animals into cities.

It's a thoroughly barbaric and inhuman method, Steve. It's terrorism: Thoughtless, careless, and evil. It will bring only more grief and hatred.

Reply: Moot. We are not fighting Christian terrorists.

I said "if". IF you are fighting Christian terrorists who believe they have to uphold Lent, would you similarly force-feed them on Lent? Yes or no? Are you really treating Christians more leniently than Jews and Muslims?

Reply: Collateral damage. As someone suggested they can get a dispensation from their iman as innocents. Israel is killing innocent muslims and Christians now in Lebanon. Killing is irreversible. Offending them is reversible and not permanent. The U.S. and Britain are killing innocent muslims in Iraq right now. Offending them is not as permanent as killing them in Iraq either.

"Collateral damage" is a term only cowards use, those who are afraid to tell it the way it is: Dead people. Children, Steve, shot to pieces. Can you say it? "Dead children"? Doesn't sound so nice, does it?

Even in Lebanon, the Hezbollah consists of some thousand militia personnel. When you start shooting pork bullets, you will end up hitting a lot of "collateral damage".

Do you think the families of this "collateral damage" will appreciate that their loved ones were not just killed, but killed with a weapon that was designed to offend all Muslims?

Why don't you just drop pig fat from the sky? That way, you achieve the same goal - smearing Muslims in pig - but at least you don't kill anyone. You just manage to offend not only the Muslims, but you will also show the world that you are willing to use a method that only a barbaric monster would use.
 
Let's deal with the ten commandments first or the 16 commandments as promulgated by Wikipedia:


From Wikipedia: “Because Jewish, Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic traditions divide the commandments in different fashions, they are presented below without itemization” I have itemized them for clarity and to respond to each vis a vis the eating of pork. A dsicussion and these commandments can be found at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments


(1)I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage: ”I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

comment: nothing about pork here.


(2) you shall have no other gods before me.

Comment: nothing about pork here but infringes on my rights to have another god.

(3) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Comment: nothing about pork here either. Infringes on my right to have a statue or other photograph of my deceased relatives.

(4) You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

Comment: No pork here either. However according to Rule#4 one’s children will be punished for their sins. This is deifnitely unfair to the kids.


(5) but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Comment: No pork here.


(6) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

Comment: Can’t use the name of god or JC in a profane way. But no pork involved.



(7) Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy.

Comment: no pork but infringes on my right to choose a different sabbath day or no sabbath day at all. Imagine if hospitals had to obey this one.

(8) For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

Comment: No pork here either. But see #7 above.

(9) But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

Comment: No pork here but does condone slavery even though the jews were slaves in egypt and certainly with god’s help escaped from that situation. See #1 above. This really does it for me on how god can contradict himself so blatantly.


(10) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

Comment: and he made pigs as well. But pork to be eaten not mentioned.


(11) Honour your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

Comment: No pork mentioned here.


(12) You shall not murder.

Comment: No pork.


(13) You shall not commit adultery.

Comment: No pork in this one.

(14) You shall not steal.

Comment: No pork.

(15) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

Comment: Does not say you can’t eat pork.

(16) You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

Comment: including his pigs if he had any. But pork eating not mentioned.

Exodus 20:1-17
 
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If one day using an aerosol dispersal bomb that doesn't kill but simply liberates pork aerosol is enough to stop the killing (innocents such as children and non-combatants).

It is called a deterrent and it is a lot less dangerous than the nuclear one.

I suggested the pork weapon because it will not kill innocents, in fact you know darn well it won't kill anyone but because of fanatical religious beliefs it can serve as a deterrent to stop the hostilities.
 
Because your list is kooky and if you're serious then I'm concerned for your mental health.

Claus may have one valid point in that dropping hams that go uneaten will spoil no matter how well cured and salted, and this could create an undesirable health hazard.

This is why I suggested that the technique be perfected. One alternative is to use powdered deep fried pork rinds (=skin) which you can buy salted, unsalted or doused with red pepper according to taste. Powdered dried fried pork rinds would not create a post-attack health hazard.

http://www.taquitos.net/snacks.php?category_code=43

http://www.evansfood.com/
 
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If one day using an aerosol dispersal bomb that doesn't kill but simply liberates pork aerosol is enough to stop the killing (innocents such as children and non-combatants). ...snip...

Since Islam is quite a practical religion and since the religious leaders of many of these terrorists groups have already managed to talk around the prohibition against suicide, killing innocent people and so on and since Muslims definitely can eat pork (i.e. if the choice is to eat pork or die then their religious beliefs are that they should eat pork) I doubt that these childish ideas would have any chance of having any effect at all on people already willing to kill others.
 
If one day using an aerosol dispersal bomb that doesn't kill but simply liberates pork aerosol is enough to stop the killing (innocents such as children and non-combatants).

It is called a deterrent and it is a lot less dangerous than the nuclear one.

I suggested the pork weapon because it will not kill innocents, in fact you know darn well it won't kill anyone but because of fanatical religious beliefs it can serve as a deterrent to stop the hostilities.

You suggested pork bullets, Steve.

IF you are fighting Christian terrorists who believe they have to uphold Lent, would you similarly force-feed them on Lent? Yes or no? Are you really treating Christians more leniently than Jews and Muslims?

Do you think the families of this "collateral damage" will appreciate that their loved ones were not just killed, but killed with a weapon that was designed to offend all Muslims?

Because your list is kooky and if you're serious then I'm concerned for your mental health.

Why is it "kooky"?

I thought you were above personal attacks?
 
Darat I think this would need to be tested before we can conclude this. Such a test would not be that difficult and part of the test could be a poll of devout muslims who are opposed to killing muslims who are bent on killing themselves by engaging in terrorist actions.

BTW Claus pork bullets are not fatal. If they can make rubber bullets they can make pork bullets. I also suggested that real bullets greased with pork be liberated as a rumour causing device and that once confirmed they were in use would have a deterrent effect. If the enemy quits and goes home the shooting will stop. That's the bottom line.

Claus for the umpteenth time this scenario is not about fighting Christian terrorists so why do you bring up the absolutely irelevant issue of them eating on Fridays during Lent? Can we please stay on topic.
 
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Darat...

I propose this thread should be in the humor section. I submit the following quotes as evidence:

Are Christians allowed by their religion to eat human flesh?

How will you ensure that you do not drop hams on Lebanon Christian sectors on Fridays?

I suggested the pork weapon ...

Powdered dried fried pork rinds would not create a post-attack health hazard.
 
Harry could you please tell me the first name of the guy sitting to the left of and directly in back of the chimp? PM me if you want. I think I know him.
 
Christians are not covered by the food restriction in Deuteronomy.

In Acts 10 vs 9-23 Peter had a vision of a sheet beeing lowered from heaven, containing all sorts of animals. A voice spoke to him telling him to kill and eat them. Peter refused because he would not eat anything impure or unclean. The voice said "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean".

Xians interpret this to mean its open season on all things edible.

Claus, you are right that Xians pick and choose the bits they like from the Bible, but the get-out given by Peter in Acts means that you cannot beat them over the head with Deuteronomy about what to eat.
 

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