Demand Koran Replace U.S. Constitution

If one were hypothetically fighting a religious army of some other faith and could find a way to avoid killing them by offending them then I would suggest development of such a weapon. "Thou shalt not kill." -- its in the Koran also, try telling that to Hezbollah.

In the meantime live muslims should be grateful that they are not dead muslims and when they die will go to heaven. That is the point of the pork as a deterrent scenario.
 
Ummmm...Who wants to tell him? [That Landover baptist church is a parody--Sk.]

Don't be too hard on him--he isn't the first to fall for that. They have a knack for copying fundamentalists that's hard to beat.
 
Also sure to smoke out Jews, vegetarians and people with high cholesterol.

Good! I once say next to a high-cholesterol jew who was on a vegetarian diet. All I heard him do is qvetch about his health and complain about the food.

Who needs such people flying anyway?
 
As mentioned earlier in this thread...

During the Indian Mutiny large numbers of Sepoys were said to have joined the mutiny precisely because the cartridges were (erroneously) said to be tainted. If a rumour of such a thing could have had such an effect, imagine what the impact on the minimal amount of goodwill the U.S. has among Muslims would be if it became known that they were specifically seeking to offend their religion.

All the while, the terrorists get their dispensation and go to heaven.

If they can be sure they will get their dispensation before embarking on their suciide or other life risking adventure.

The Israelis have no goodwill with the Muslims and yes the U.S. has precious little. If using a deterrent such as weapons grade finely milled pork will save their lives perhaps the non-supersititous muslims will realize we were doing it for their own good. Psy-Ops is well entrenched in warfare although for obvious reasons we don't hear much about it.
 
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If they can be sure they will get their dispensation before embarking on their suciide or other life risking adventure.

The Israelis have no goodwill with the Muslims and yes the U.S. has precious little. If using a deterrent such as weapons grade finely milled pork will save their lives perhaps the non-supersititous muslims will realize we were doing it for their own good. Psy-Ops is well entrenched in warfare although for obvious reasons we don't hear much about it.

IF you are fighting Christian terrorists who believe they have to uphold Lent, would you similarly force-feed them on Lent? Yes or no? Are you really treating Christians more leniently than Jews and Muslims?

Yes?

or

No?


Do you think the families of this "collateral damage" will appreciate that their loved ones were not just killed, but killed with a weapon that was designed to offend all Muslims?

Yes?

or

No?
 
IF you are fighting Christian terrorists who believe they have to uphold Lent, would you similarly force-feed them on Lent? Yes or no? Are you really treating Christians more leniently than Jews and Muslims?

Yes?

or

No?


Do you think the families of this "collateral damage" will appreciate that their loved ones were not just killed, but killed with a weapon that was designed to offend all Muslims?

Yes?

or

No?


In no particular order, your answers are yes and no.

There, happy?
 
Force feeding someone is not a practical weapon of deterrence in warfare so no would be the answer. Some other non-lethal supersititon would need to be developed as a non-lethal weapon.

The families of muslims tarred by weapons grade finely milled pork rind powder should be grateful their loved ones are alive, can be purified, and when they do die from natural causes will get their reward as promised in the koran. Upholding the higher standard of the ten commandments which you love to cite, I could care less if they are offended since I would not be killing. There are some sins which are not so serious, and others which are. Among the mortal sins, the ones for which you would be punished and go to hell for is killing. Therefore I will not be forced in the position of needing to commit the mortal sin of killing in order to spare someone the indignity of being doused with weapons grade pork rind powder.

The bigger question is whether it will be a deterrent or not and so far here there are arguments that it may not be. Hence the pork rinds would have to be tested somehow.
 
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Force feeding someone is not a practical weapon of deterrence in warfare so no would be the answer.

If you caught a Christian terrorist, and he had information about an upcoming attack, and it was Lent, would you use force feeding as a weapon?

Some other non-lethal supersititon would need to be developed as a non-lethal weapon.

If you could find such a weapon, would you use it against Christians? Yes or no?

What would such a weapon be?

The families of muslims tarred by weapons grade finely milled pork rind powder should be grateful their loved ones are alive, can be purified, and when they do die from natural causes will get their reward as promised in the koran.

How would that deter the Muslim terrorists?? They are also alive, can be purified and die from natural causes.

Upholding the higher standard of the ten commandments which you love to cite, I could care less if they are offended since I would not be killing. There are some sins which are not so serious, and others which are. Among the mortal sins, the ones for which you would be punished and go to hell for is killing. Therefore I will not be forced in the position of needing to commit the mortal sin of killing in order to spare someone the indignity of being doused with weapons grade pork rind powder.

Steve, you claim to be an Atheist, yet you speak of "mortal sin"?

The bigger question is whether it will be a deterrent or not and so far here there are arguments that it may not be. Hence the pork rinds would have to be tested somehow.

How do you suggest that? Polls? You really think that will go down well with Muslims and non-Muslims alike?
 
Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :
Force feeding someone is not a practical weapon of deterrence in warfare so no would be the answer.

CFL: If you caught a Christian terrorist, and he had information about an upcoming attack, and it was Lent, would you use force feeding as a weapon?

Reply: I would threaten him with it. Some elements of the IRA were/are certainly Christian terrorists, Catholic terrorists to be specific. They were force fed in prison in England during hunger strikes so there is some precedence for that. However, as I recall there was nothing that the British could use against them in the way of supersititon.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :
Some other non-lethal supersititon would need to be developed as a non-lethal weapon.

CFL: If you could find such a weapon, would you use it against Christians? Yes or no?

Reply: Against Christian terrorists such as the IRA. Yes if it were my job to do so. Certainly preferable to harming them physically or killing them.
CFL: What would such a weapon be?
Don’t know

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :
The families of muslims tarred by weapons grade finely milled pork rind powder should be grateful their loved ones are alive, can be purified, and when they do die from natural causes will get their reward as promised in the koran.

CFL: How would that deter the Muslim terrorists?? They are also alive, can be purified and die from natural causes.

Reply: Because if they were engaged in battle and thought they might die after being tarred with pork powder, they would stop risking their lives under that circumstance. They realize that if they were dead they will not know if they were purified or received dispensation or not. Is the risk worth taking?

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :
Upholding the higher standard of the ten commandments which you love to cite, I could care less if they are offended since I would not be killing. There are some sins which are not so serious, and others which are. Among the mortal sins, the ones for which you would be punished and go to hell for is killing. Therefore I will not be forced in the position of needing to commit the mortal sin of killing in order to spare someone the indignity of being doused with weapons grade pork rind powder.

CFL: Steve, you claim to be an Atheist, yet you speak of "mortal sin"?

Reply: I speak of it in the hypothetical sense. Secular humanists and atheists are opposed to killing but don’t characterize it as a mortal sin. It is the ultimate offense you can commit, even for atheists, so should be avoided. I called it a mortal sin since in the eyes of a religionist it is irreversible and worthy of eternal damnation and condemnation. Any good follower of the ten+ commandments should know this. Atheists can agree with some of the commandments by the way and not with others.

Originally Posted by SteveGrenard :
The bigger question is whether it will be a deterrent or not and so far here there are arguments that it may not be. Hence the pork rinds would have to be tested somehow.

CFL: How do you suggest that? Polls? You really think that will go down well with Muslims and non-Muslims alike?


Reply: It needs to be tested. If not by polls by actual trials. It is non-lethal and not very difficult to incorporate into battle plans. Remember also that once it is leaked to the enemy that weapons grade pork rind is being used it is projected that this will act as a deterrent. It was suggested in Israel that the populace be armed with water guns containing a solution of bacon grease and water to be shot at would be terrorists.
 
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http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/second-charge-filed-for-mosque-defiler-in-maine

The Pork weapon was tested in Maine according to the above news story datelined July 21, 2006. These were Somali muslims peacefully assembled at prayer services in a mosque and was rightfully charged as a hate crime thanks to our constitution.


However, as a test it indicates that this weapon could be used against non-peaceful, non-worshipping Hezbollah muslim terrorists if they behave in a similar fashion.
 
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Reply: I would threaten him with it. Some elements of the IRA were/are certainly Christian terrorists, Catholic terrorists to be specific. They were force fed in prison in England during hunger strikes so there is some precedence for that. However, as I recall there was nothing that the British could use against them in the way of supersititon.

They were force fed because they went on hunger strikes, Steve. Not because they were tortured for information.

Reply: Against Christian terrorists such as the IRA. Yes if it were my job to do so. Certainly preferable to harming them physically or killing them.

And why is that not torture, Steve?

Reply: Because if they were engaged in battle and thought they might die after being tarred with pork powder, they would stop risking their lives under that circumstance. They realize that if they were dead they will not know if they were purified or received dispensation or not. Is the risk worth taking?

The same goes for the children you are about to sprinkle with pork, Steve. They could also get killed in the battle before they are "purified".

Either way you look at it, your barbaric method does not work.

Reply: I speak of it in the hypothetical sense. Secular humanists and atheists are opposed to killing but don’t characterize it as a mortal sin. It is the ultimate offense you can commit, even for atheists, so should be avoided. I called it a mortal sin since in the eyes of a religionist it is irreversible and worthy of eternal damnation and condemnation. Any good follower of the ten+ commandments should know this. Atheists can agree with some of the commandments by the way and not with others.

But you are the one who decide to do this. Why shouldn't the religious fanatics welcome that you kill them, if they think that it will not only earn them martyrdom, but also doom you to eternal hell?

Reply: It needs to be tested. If not by polls by actual trials. It is non-lethal and not very difficult to incorporate into battle plans. Remember also that once it is leaked to the enemy that weapons grade pork rind is being used it is projected that this will act as a deterrent. It was suggested in Israel that the populace be armed with water guns containing a solution of bacon grease and water to be shot at would be terrorists.

Actual trials? You plan to experiment on Muslims?

Tell me, Steve: Just who will you use in your experiments? Why would any Muslim participate in such experiments? Or perhaps you would simply drag Muslims off the streets and start peppering them with pork?
 
Was this sanctioned by the US Military?

If not, then you cannot claim that the "Pork weapon" was "tested".

No. Read the report. What it does is indicate to those who feel a pork based weapon will have no value does in fact carry a great deal of effect.
 
No. Read the report. What it does is indicate to those who feel a pork based weapon will have no value does in fact carry a great deal of effect.

And I'm pretty certain it would have the same effect if it had been thrown into a Synagogue or a Hindu Temple or a Church and so on - throwing pig heads into places where people conduct what to them are the most sacred aspects of their religions is unlikely to have no effect.

By the way when you carry out the experiments what will your controls be? Will you be throwing frozen pigs heads into say baptist churches and lambs heads into mosques?

This whole idea actually goes beyond silliness. The pork prohibition is a minor part of Islamic beliefs, we have evidence that some religious teachers of Islam can convince Muslims that breaking much more severe prohibitions (e.g. against suicide) is not only OK but will be rewarded by their God. The idea that somehow the idea of a bit of pork flesh will prevent these people is beyond childish silliness and is nothing more then the type of anti-semitic propaganda that Jews have had to endure for thousands of years.
 
But you are the one who decide to do this. Why shouldn't the religious fanatics welcome that you kill them, if they think that it will not only earn them martyrdom, but also doom you to eternal hell?

They would but that doesn't mean I should let them win. That's my decision. Yes, I decide. No to killing, yes to a non-lethal assault.

I guess this means that you feel it is preferable to kill a muslim terrorist rather than douse him with pork powder? I just don't happen to agree with your ethics. If there was a non-lethal means of dispensing with an enemy that would be preferable for me. Apparently not for you. You would rather shoot and kill your enemy. I'll keep that in mind.
 
And I'm pretty certain it would have the same effect if it had been thrown into a Synagogue or a Hindu Temple or a Church and so on - throwing pig heads into places where people conduct what to them are the most sacred aspects of their religions is unlikely to have no effect.

Perhaps yes.

By the way when you carry out the experiments what will your controls be? Will you be throwing frozen pigs heads into say baptist churches and lambs heads into mosques?

Throwing pigs heads into mosques at people praying is only an indication of the general effect pork has on muslims and should be condemned.

I do not know how a weapon like this can be tested except by using it on a small subset of enemy combatant/terrorists in an actual scenario and see what happens. If the Israeli's placed the lard on the buses and the suicide bombers stopped attacking them then that's a test. This would need to be an observational study without the use of controls.

This whole idea actually goes beyond silliness. The pork prohibition is a minor part of Islamic beliefs, we have evidence that some religious teachers of Islam can convince Muslims that breaking much more severe prohibitions (e.g. against suicide) is not only OK but will be rewarded by their God. The idea that somehow the idea of a bit of pork flesh will prevent these people is beyond childish silliness and is nothing more then the type of anti-semitic propaganda that Jews have had to endure for thousands of years.

Well this is supposition. What is the evidence that pork doesn't have a profound effect on the behavior of a muslim fanatic? I also cannot find
the admonition against suicide in Koranic scriptures. Nor is it in the 10 or 16 commandments per Wikipedia. Dying for ones religion has been a central sticking point for those of us opposed to, er, well dying for ones god or any deity period = atheism. Suicide for god is a well established behavior in just about all religions. Suicide for a reason other than that might be prohibited and this may be where the muslim terrorist fighters are getting some carefully crafted disinformation to mold their suicidal behaviors ... that of course and the silly belief (if you want to talk about silly) that they will each have 72 virgins waiting for them in heaven. I think it was Jay Leno who said it best when he commented that St. Peter had sent a message down to stop sending martyrs, he's running out of virgins.

We both know that we'd rather be doused with pork powder than blown up or shot through the head. If there was a choice it seems fanatical muslims would prefer the latter. I say let's treat them to the former.


I don't think you can compare sucicide for allah which means to them dying and getting this reward and the prospect of.. being alive and somehow besmirched by piggy powder while in battle while running the risk of dying in this unclean state. Hence deterrence. I'd rather the world had a pork based deterrent factor than a nuclear one. I think we should tell the Iranian leader we will cover him with pork powder if he persists with his nuclear ambitions. What we can use against the Korean atheist is another matter. Atheists don't have religious superstitions so are a far more formidable threat.
 
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...snip... If the Israeli's placed the lard on the buses and the suicide bombers stopped attacking them then that's a test.

Did you ever find any evidence for that story apart from the website you originally linked to? I haven't been able to find any.


Well this is supposition. What is the evidence that pork doesn't have a profound effect on the behavior of a muslim fanatic?

Since they are willing to commit suicide, something that has been held to be against Islamic teachings for centuries then why over something like pork, which remember Muslims may even eat when the circumstances require it, would there be any possibility of it deterring them?

I also cannot find the admonition against suicide in Koranic scriptures.

...snip...

Qur'an 4:29-30
 
Comitting suicide for God is alright. There is a great big out on the issue of suicide:

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/A01

Another crucial point to studying the Quran properly is to always look at the verses preceding and following a specific verse/subject. An example of how the wrong understanding can be derived if this is not done can be seen in the following:
"And Moses said to his people: 'O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.'" (Quran 2:54)
This verse on its own creates an enigma as Moses is asking his people to commit suicide while suicide is forbidden according to God's law and is punishable with being cast in Hell (4:29-30). However, when we look at the 'wider' picture that occurs in the verses before and after then the story takes on a completely different light:
"And We appointed a meeting time for Moses of forty nights, but then you took the calf after him while you were wicked. Then We forgave you after that, perhaps you would be thankful. And We gave Moses the Scripture and the criterion, perhaps you would be guided. And Moses said to his people: 'O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.' And you said: 'O Moses, we will not believe you until we see God openly!' So the lightning bolt took you while you were still staring. Then We resurrected you after your death that you may be appreciative. And We shaded you with clouds, and sent down to you manna and quails: 'Eat from the goodness of the provisions We have provided you.' They did not wrong Us, but it was their souls that they wronged." (Quran 2:51-57)
It was the design of the Almighty to resurrect this particular group from the Children of Israel to manifest His signs. Thus, once they refused to kill themselves, God made them die anyway and then resurrected them to make His will done?Thus the paradox is removed since God is the only One who may take life as it is His gift to begin with.


4. Be Aware Of Multiple Meaning
 
Comitting suicide for God is alright. There is a great big out on the issue of suicide:

http://www.free-minds.org/quran/PM/A01


4. Be Aware Of Multiple Meaning

Steve I do feel like answering "well duh" since this is exactly what I have been saying. For centuries Muslims held suicide to be wrong, some Muslims now teach that suicide in some circumstances is not only OK but also a sure fire way to get to heaven. Given that re-definition or re-interpretation there is no reason to believe that the prohibition about pork, which is already subject to exceptions would be any deterrent to any Muslim terrorist.
 

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