Split Thread DEI in the US

[Roger Ramjets]

The merit argument is BS, about one step up on those 'literacy' tests that Blacks had to pass before they could vote.

A just society doesn't reward people according to 'merit'. Everybody has a role to play and everybody benefits, including the majority who aren't the best in their chosen profession. Any system that requires people to be the best is a bad one. A good job is one that doesn't force people to push themselves to the limit.

50 years ago I nearly didn't get into my chosen profession because I was considered 'overqualified'. The system wanted me to go to university where they would keep pushing me until I either became the next Einstein or burned out. But I knew I could handle being an electronics technician as I was already doing it as a hobby. The more important thing was that it interested me, which made learning easier. That's just as important as the so-called 'merit' being held up as the only valid criteria by bigots.

The New Zealand Government was practicing 'DEI' before the term was invented. My job was a highly technical one that women generally weren't interested in, but we had several female technicians. How? Simply because they applied for the job and were able to do the work. OTOH there were a few (white, males) who could handle it. They simply got moved to other jobs that they could handle, and nobody got upset about it.

 

[Trausti]

The merit argument is BS, about one step up on those 'literacy' tests that Blacks had to pass before they could vote.

A just society doesn't reward people according to 'merit'. Everybody has a role to play and everybody benefits, including the majority who aren't the best in their chosen profession. Any system that requires people to be the best is a bad one. A good job is one that doesn't force people to push themselves to the limit.

Now that's B.S. If you got charged with a crime would you want whoever the local public defenders office could find for you or a private attorney with a good record of acquittals? The idea the people don't care about merit is just nonsense. Are you not aware that people do all kinds of research on the internet before picking surgeons, attorneys, plumbers, and restaurants? Why do you think they do that?

50 years ago I nearly didn't get into my chosen profession because I was considered 'overqualified'. The system wanted me to go to university where they would keep pushing me until I either became the next Einstein or burned out. But I knew I could handle being an electronics technician as I was already doing it as a hobby. The more important thing was that it interested me, which made learning easier. That's just as important as the so-called 'merit' being held up as the only valid criteria by bigots.

Wait, you weren't asked for a diversity statement? You weren't asked to affirm that there are invisible power structures oppressing certain privileged folks?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Wait, you think diversity statement purity tests are a good and meritorious thing? What exactly do they have to do with merit and ability?

Everything isn't about your so-called 'merit'. It's sad that universities have to give prospective teachers such 'loyalty' tests, but that's what the bigots have forced on them. DEI shouldn't even have to be a stated policy, but this is America so... Even your president does it - except the other way around - and government employees have been fired en masse for not being bigots.

In this case it seems the U.C.L.A. dodged a bullet. Imagine if they had hired him and then his past came to light.

 

[Trausti]

Everything isn't about your so-called 'merit'. It's sad that universities have to give prospective teachers such 'loyalty' tests, but that's what the bigots have forced on them.

Is that a joke?

DEI shouldn't even have to be a stated policy, but this is America so...

Don't you live in NZ?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

A just society doesn't reward people according to 'merit'. Everybody has a role to play and everybody benefits, including the majority who aren't the best in their chosen profession. Any system that requires people to be the best is a bad one. A good job is one that doesn't force people to push themselves to the limit.

50 years ago I nearly didn't get into my chosen profession because I was considered 'overqualified'. The system wanted me to go to university where they would keep pushing me until I either became the next Einstein or burned out. But I knew I could handle being an electronics technician as I was already doing it as a hobby. The more important thing was that it interested me, which made learning easier. That's just as important as the so-called 'merit' being held up as the only valid criteria by bigots.

I think you're misunderstanding the argument. Nobody is asking anyone to be the best in their field in the whole country, much less to be the next Einstein. Just the most qualified out of those who applied for the job.

And none of us are telling you what job you should apply for or what you study. If you don't want to go to university, fine, don't.

You're also treating jobs like they're all the same. Sure, some jobs just need you to be barely good enough. But since we're talking about a prestigious university, the job isn't just "teacher", it's "professor". The latter doesn't involve just showing up to class and reciting a lecture. They're also supposed to research and further the knowledge, and to help students do research in all kinds of new things. So yeah, you do want the most qualified out of those who showed up.

 

[dann]

In fact, sometimes the only merit, the only qualification you need is to be white!

Trump Plan CRUMBLING As Staggering White South African Payment Unveiled (The Damage Report on YouTube, Sep 7, 2026 – 5:24 min.)
Donald Trump's con over white South Africans needing to come to the US as refugees, while not allowing refugees from other countries to come, due to extreme need is falling apart as unusual new federal support payment increase revealed.
White South Africans could get $4,500 in aid if they come to U.S. as refugees https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigr...
"White South Africans who come to the United States as refugees could get up to $4,500 per person in initial federal support beginning Oct. 1, nearly double the current amount, four people familiar with the change in policy told The Washington Post.
The assistance — up from about $2,400 — would be the highest level to date, one of the people said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to share the information.
President Donald Trump froze refugee admissions from around the world after taking office in 2025. But weeks later, he launched a program to bring South Africans of European-descended Afrikaner ethnicity into the U.S. as refugees."

By the way, I'm pretty sure that §4,500 wouldn't make many Norwegians (of any color) consider leaving their country for MAGA land.

 

[dann]

And how would you even tell these days if someone was a WASP since the Plymouth colony and an Irish or Ukrainian that came later? You know, since some questions are forbidden to ask when hiring nowadays? By looks they're both white.

Yes, indeed! They are both white!!!
Thank you for answering my questions while trying to avoid answering them!
However, there are other ways to tell if someone is a WASP. The color of their skin only serves as a criterion when eliminating those who conspicuously aren't.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Now that's B.S. If you got charged with a crime would you want whoever the local public defenders office could find for you or a private attorney with a good record of acquittals?

I'd take the public defender. I've been on a few juries and the public defenders were pretty sharp. They have to be because they are often taking on hopeless cases. In one criminal trial two of us managed to turn the jury around, but in the other one I failed. I'd be happy with one of those guys, especially if I was guilty!

The idea the people don't care about merit is just nonsense. Are you not aware that people do all kinds of research on the internet before picking surgeons, attorneys, plumbers, and restaurants? Why do you think they do that?

I care about people being competent, but that's not all I care about. It doesn't worry me if they aren't the best in their field. My mother was a nurse and she told me stories about some of the surgeons she worked under (not with). The had an inflated sense of their importance and treated the nurses like ◊◊◊◊. So in the 90's when I had a hernia operation I was pleasantly surprised to find that the surgeon was a nice guy. I was even more pleased to get the same surgeon 20 years later. Shopping around was never on my mind.

Wait, you weren't asked for a diversity statement? You weren't asked to affirm that there are invisible power structures oppressing certain privileged folks?

Can't you read? It was 50 years ago, in New Zealand.

In the mid 70's DEI wasn't considered a thing here. There was awareness of racism and sexism etc., but they were generally considered separate issues. You should realize that New Zealand has always been more egalitarian than the US. We never had slavery. The Treaty of Waitangi gave Maori and Pakeha 'equal' property rights from the beginning. NZ was the first country to give women voting rights, in 1893. Of course there was bigotry, but it wasn't as ingrained into society as it in the US.

Nevertheless Maori did suffer from colonialism, as indigenous people did wherever it touched them. In 1975 the Waitangi Tribunal was set up to handle treaty claims. More Maoris were getting a higher education and universities embraced Maori culture. In 1992 the Equal Employment Opportunity Trust (now called the Center for Workplace Inclusion) was established as a public-private partnership to promote workplace diversity.

IMO that was a good thing, but of course some 'whites' saw it differently. By 2020 we had people here wearing MAGA hats. In 2024 the center-right National party gained power by forming a coalition with the anti-immigrant NZ First party and the libertarian ACT party (who promised to end 'race-based hiring'). Sickening to see the worst parts of American culture being imported into New Zealand, but that's the downside of a global community.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I think you're misunderstanding the argument. Nobody is asking anyone to be the best in their field in the whole country, much less to be the next Einstein. Just the most qualified out of those who applied for the job.

This reminds me of when I applied to join the Navy as an officer. After 2 weeks of tests and 'observation' at the base in Devonport, we had the final interviews. One guy who I thought was a shoe-in due to his qualifications was accused of trying to use the Navy to further his education. In that 2 weeks I realized the Navy wasn't for me, so I was relieved when they said I wasn't officer material.

What they really wanted was people who would embrace the Navy culture. Being the most qualified was no guarantee of getting the job, and this was without any 'DEI'.

You're also treating jobs like they're all the same. Sure, some jobs just need you to be barely good enough. But since we're talking about a prestigious university, the job isn't just "teacher", it's "professor".

This professor was not rejected for failing DEI. He had the job! Or would have if compromizing material hadn't surfaced. It could have been something else like praising Hitler or saying "women let you do it when you're a professor". You can say those things and become President of the United States with any qualifications at all, but only if voters approve. Similarly you can fail an interview for saying the wrong things, even if you are the most qualified entrant. No job is just about qualifications.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Yes, indeed! They are both white!!!
Thank you for answering my questions while trying to avoid answering them!
However, there are other ways to tell if someone is a WASP. The color of their skin only serves as a criterion when eliminating those who conspicuously aren't.

That is a bizarre answer. From the start my whole POINT was that they're white -- and in fact I wrote that explicitly for each case -- but didn't have any generational privilege or wealth. So discriminating against them based on looks, to supposedly correct some past injustice, is in fact just adding to the discrimination they already had in the past.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

This reminds me of when I applied to join the Navy as an officer. After 2 weeks of tests and 'observation' at the base in Devonport, we had the final interviews. One guy who I thought was a shoe-in due to his qualifications was accused of trying to use the Navy to further his education. In that 2 weeks I realized the Navy wasn't for me, so I was relieved when they said I wasn't officer material.

What they really wanted was people who would embrace the Navy culture. Being the most qualified was no guarantee of getting the job, and this was without any 'DEI'.

1. That's also a qualification.

2. The military culture IS to push you to be the best. In fact in the USA, since that's in the thread title, the official doctrine is "up or out". If you don't get promoted for a given number of years, you're out. Being barely qualified to keep doing your current job at your current rank is NOT enough to keep your job.

So it seems like the most bizarre example to use when you're arguing against a system forcing you to be the best.

This professor was not rejected for failing DEI. He had the job! Or would have if compromizing material hadn't surfaced.

I thought we were still talking about those who had to take DEI purity tests. Since that's what you were saying in the message I was answering to.

You can say those things and become President of the United States with any qualifications at all, but only if voters approve.

Winning popular support IS the qualification for that job.

Similarly you can fail an interview for saying the wrong things, even if you are the most qualified entrant. No job is just about qualifications.

Sure, but DEI is a different topic than things said in a job interview.

 

[Darat]

What's a DEI purity test? It sounds like from what you've posted that they were expected to understand and agree with the universities policies and processes to get a job there?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

What's a DEI purity test? It sounds like from what you've posted that they were expected to understand and agree with the universities policies and processes to get a job there?

That can be just a form or maybe a lecture. It doesn't require one to be graded on DEI at every step.

 

[Ranb]

I served on a jury earlier this year, the defendant had a public defender. He seemed brighter than the prosecutor. He made a fairly good case for his client, but the county's case was just too strong. After the trial both attorneys talked to us about the case. It was interesting the amount of evidence they had which was not allowed, for various reasons, to be introduced at trial.

 

[arthwollipot]

With apologies to Bill Watterson:

 

[theprestige]

The merit argument is BS, about one step up on those 'literacy' tests that Blacks had to pass before they could vote.

A just society doesn't reward people according to 'merit'. Everybody has a role to play and everybody benefits, including the majority who aren't the best in their chosen profession. Any system that requires people to be the best is a bad one. A good job is one that doesn't force people to push themselves to the limit.

50 years ago I nearly didn't get into my chosen profession because I was considered 'overqualified'. The system wanted me to go to university where they would keep pushing me until I either became the next Einstein or burned out. But I knew I could handle being an electronics technician as I was already doing it as a hobby. The more important thing was that it interested me, which made learning easier. That's just as important as the so-called 'merit' being held up as the only valid criteria by bigots.

The New Zealand Government was practicing 'DEI' before the term was invented. My job was a highly technical one that women generally weren't interested in, but we had several female technicians. How? Simply because they applied for the job and were able to do the work. OTOH there were a few (white, males) who could handle it. They simply got moved to other jobs that they could handle, and nobody got upset about it.

Merit in this context just means qualified to do the job. You don't need to be able to read, in order to vote (though I'm sure it helps).

But you do need to be able to read to do all kinds of jobs. Meanwhile, you don't need to be of a particular skin color to do any kind of job. Or vote, if anyone is still confused about that.

So, far from being BS, the merit argument actually has merit.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

With apologies to Bill Watterson:

I guess it's only appropriate that Calvin is saying it. His saying or doing dumb stuff is the whole point of the comic.

 

[arthwollipot]

I guess it's only appropriate that Calvin is saying it. His saying or doing dumb stuff is the whole point of the comic.

It's not dumb. It's truth.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

It's not dumb. It's truth.

OK, against my better judgement, I'll bite. What is your evidence for that happening? You can't just proclaim something to be true and magically becomes true, any more than Emre can in the Religion forum.

Because if you go by expecting the representation percent of employees/students/whatever to match the percentage of the total population, then you would have to conclude that NFL and NBA massively and unjustly discriminate against whites, since the blacks are 70% of the players in the former and 78% of the latter, massively out of proportion with their being only 13.5% of the population. I mean, for the NBA that's almost 6 times over-representation for the blacks, which by that dumb logic would indicate some MASSIVE discrimination against other races

Or by the same logic, academia in the UK discriminates against whites, since east Asian kids are a bigger percent of students than the local Brits compared to their percentage of the population. Or you'd have to conclude that fields like gender studies discriminate against males, since most since the vast majority of students are female.


Plus, AGAIN, that's not what equity means. It's not the same thing as equality, even basing it on their proponents. It's in OPPOSITION to equality. The whole idea is that if some people are disadvantaged, you must give them more jobs, more opportunities, more everything to compensate for that disadvantage.

I'd post that cartoon from a pro-DEI organisation again, but you've already seen it twice and just stuck your fingers in your ears and went "la la la, I can't hear you, I'm still right."

 

[dann]

What is your evidence for that happening?

OK, against my better judgment, I'll bite.
A picture is worth a thousand words: