Decline in religious belief in Ireland

[catsmate]

Is westprog Irish? I have lived all my life in Dublin, and I can say for sure, crime was a lot worse in the 80s/early 90s.

Indeed.

 

[abaddon]

If not the RCC, what say to the RUCs?

Orange blokes of uncertain parentage.

 

[westprog]

Indeed.

80's/90's was probably a bit worse than 2000's - but way worse than 60's/70's, which in their turn were worse that 40's/50's.

This is of course separate from the political violence which was mostly located in the North, and which peaked in the early 70's.

 

[abaddon]

80's/90's was probably a bit worse than 2000's - but way worse than 60's/70's, which in their turn were worse that 40's/50's.

So you agree that crime here has declined since the 90s.

This is of course separate from the political violence which was mostly located in the North, and which peaked in the early 70's.

That is flat out wrong. Do you really believe it was all confined to the north? Please. Remember Garda McCabe.

 

[westprog]

So you agree that crime here has declined since the 90s.

Do I? Well, some crime probably has. The massive increase from the 1950's probably peaked at some point, with a gentle decline. However, the murder rate doesn't seem to be falling. There are various different types of murder, from drunken fights among young men to assassinations by drug gangs, but the statistics show

2004 - 31
2005 - 52
2006 - 60
2007 - 78

There's vast variation, of course. However, in 1951, the murder rate was 4. Even in 1971, with the country on the brink of civil war, it was only 10.

That is flat out wrong. Do you really believe it was all confined to the north? Please. Remember Garda McCabe.

No, that is flat out right.

Why is it that when someone says "mostly" people feel the need to read it as "entirely, without exception". If political violence had been exclusively in the North, then I wouldn't have said "mostly". I know about McCabe, and the Dublin and Monaghan bombings - not to mention Birmingham and the other attacks in England.

Reference to the CAIN database of the Troubles will tell us that of over 3500 deaths, 115 were in the Republic. Every death is a tragedy to the people involved, but it's clear that the deaths in the Republic were mostly overspill. The IRA wasn't carrying out a murder campaign against police and army in the South, and the Loyalists were only able to act sporadically.

 

[fuelair]

Orange blokes of uncertain parentage.

Quite right - one side as bad/worse than the other. They did call it right as "the troubles"! And so many idiots and anal orifices (and that's kind on both sides).

 

[westprog]

And what has that got to do with your claim:

which directly linked your (claimed) social disintegration with disillusionment with the RCC.

I used the term "accompanied" advisedly. I don't claim a causal relationship in either direction. There's plenty of ways in which a correlation can occur.

What I'm concerned to point out is that over-rosy views of how things can only get better are not always born out.

Perhaps you should support your claims?

Perhaps you should take careful note of what my claims actually are.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Pol Pot and Stalin did what they did because of their ideology and worldview, just like the terrorists or the crusaders. Their ideology happened to be atheist, and the crusaders happened not to be.

Seriously?


I mean seriously?

 

[Dcdrac]

And do not forget the slavery system that was called the Magdelene Laundrys

 

[abaddon]

I used the term "accompanied" advisedly. I don't claim a causal relationship in either direction. There's plenty of ways in which a correlation can occur.

What I'm concerned to point out is that over-rosy views of how things can only get better are not always born out.




Perhaps you should take careful note of what my claims actually are.

Yet you ignore those posters born and raised in this country.

Take your bigotry elsewhere.

 

[catsmate]

Is westprog Irish? I have lived all my life in Dublin, and I can say for sure, crime was a lot worse in the 80s/early 90s.

Yet you ignore those posters born and raised in this country.

And who've had a look at the CSO figures.

 

[catsmate]

Is westprog Irish? I have lived all my life in Dublin, and I can say for sure, crime was a lot worse in the 80s/early 90s.

Yet you ignore those posters born and raised in this country.

And who've had a look at the CSO figures.

 

[Dcdrac]

The area of the uk I grew up in may as well have been little Ireland, my parents were Irish immigrants.

 

[Darat]

Wonder if some of it can be accounted for by less younger people leaving Ireland than in the past?

 

[scarlettinlondon]

The total number of Irish people emigrating in the 2006-08 period was 42,000. In 2009-11, it was 86,000.


Up to 75,000 Irish citizens are predicted to emigrate in 2012 – higher than the levels of the late 1980s.

 

[westprog]

Seriously?


I mean seriously?

Yes, seriously. Atheism wasn't a matter of minor private belief for Pol Pot or Stalin. They devoted considerable time and trouble to crushing religion. (Something I bear in mind whenever anyone here insists that persecution is exclusively something suffered by atheists at the hands of the religious).

However, I know that the essentially benign nature of atheism and the essentially malign nature of belief is an article of faith, not to be refuted by counter-examples.

 

[westprog]

Yet you ignore those posters born and raised in this country.

Really? I thought I was responding to their posts.

Take your bigotry elsewhere.

Yes, those inconvenient bigoted facts. If only they could be swept under the carpet. Isn't that the national tradition?

 

[abaddon]

Really? I thought I was responding to their posts.



Yes, those inconvenient bigoted facts. If only they could be swept under the carpet. Isn't that the national tradition?

No, that is the RCC modus operandi. You know, the outfit we all laugh at.

 

[westprog]

Wonder if some of it can be accounted for by less younger people leaving Ireland than in the past?

Massive emigration in the '80's, which slowed down for the Celtic Tiger. Didn't stop altogether though. There was net immigration, but a lot of graduates still looked for jobs in the UK and USA, while stacks of Poles came in for the building boom, lived in one-bedroom flats while they saved their money, and went home when it all fell apart. Now emigration is up again, and for the most part, the emigrants don't come home when things revive.

There are lots of possible reasons for crime in Ireland. Unemployment, drugs, a change in value systems. The troubles almost certainly contributed. When heroin came in that made a massive difference in society. Also, people drink a lot more, which may be a surprise to those used to the stereotype.

 

[abaddon]

Massive emigration in the '80's, which slowed down for the Celtic Tiger. Didn't stop altogether though.

And so what?

There was net immigration, but a lot of graduates still looked for jobs in the UK and USA,

And so what?

while stacks of Poles came in for the building boom, lived in one-bedroom flats while they saved their money, and went home when it all fell apart. Now emigration is up again, and for the most part, the emigrants don't come home when things revive.

Your racism is showing.

There are lots of possible reasons for crime in Ireland. Unemployment, drugs, a change in value systems. The troubles almost certainly contributed.

Yet you single out only one, the loss of religious buffoonery. Why is that?

When heroin came in that made a massive difference in society.

Get current. The H ball is yesterday.

Also, people drink a lot more, which may be a surprise to those used to the stereotype.

Oddly, less. yup less. All of the statistics say less. You go ahead and chase that rainbow, and abuse that leprechaun. Let me know when you find that crock of ..... whatever.