Decline in religious belief in Ireland

[Mister Agenda]

What do you expect me to say that I didn't already point out? There used to be far less crime in Ireland a generation ago. People were far less likely to be attacked or robbed. On the other hand, there was terrible institutional abuse. So if you want to quibble about definitions, go ahead. It doesn't change anything substantial.

The rapid decrease in religiosity didn't occur a generation ago, in 1998, 92% identified as Roman Catholic, 3% as Church of Ireland, and about 1% other religions, for a total of 96%. It doesn't get much more religious than that in the developed world. So maybe you should be looking at the last 15 years or so instead of comparing to previous generations.

 

[westprog]

Interesting that you dodge and dive. I wonder why?

Well, let's look at our relative contributions to this thread, then. I made particular assertions - I said that crime and violence and social disintegration had increased in Ireland even as the dominance of the church diminished. I also pointed out that the dominance of the church was associated with horrendous abuses. I didn't specify a simplistic causal link, as I don't consider any such link can be easily established.

What have you contributed so far? Not only have you failed to produce evidence to support your assertions or rebuttals, you haven't come up with any assertions. You don't want to take a position. Instead, little digs like

Did you, by any chance, read the analysis that goes with that?

You could have made a specific claim there. You could have pointed out some way in which the analysis of the data made it's support for my claims invalid. No, because that would have involved making a statement which would have needed defending.

Just a little implication, throw something and step back. Nothing that could be contradicted. Just Asking Questions. I asked him a question and he dodged it.

Doesn't really seem to back up what you're claiming, does it?

Let me see. I claimed an increase, over the time period in question, of crime and violence. When asked for evidence, I produced a table that demonstrated that murders had gone up from an annual rate of 4 to 78.

I think that the murder rate is a fairly good indicator of the level of violent crime. If you don't think this, please explain why.

And that's if you limit your original claim to homicide, rather than what you actually said, which was that there had been "a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration". You have not established that, I'm afraid, and your own source contradicts you.

In what bizarre alternate world does a murder rate increase from 4 to 78 not indicate that there's more violence? If you examine the table of indictable crimes, you will see that the crime rate significantly increased as well.

Are you seriously claiming that in the sixty-odd years covered by the statistics, that crime and violence did not significantly increase? Or are you merely claiming that the murder rate doesn't show anything in particular?

It might be claimed, in the context of a terrorist war, that the murder rate should be considered separately. However, I've already addressed that in response to Abaddon's claim that political violence wasn't largely confined to Northern Ireland.

Not that I expect a claim, or an argument, or counter-evidence. Just an insistence that some questions should be answered. Unstated questions, of course.

 

[westprog]

The rapid decrease in religiosity didn't occur a generation ago, in 1998, 92% identified as Roman Catholic, 3% as Church of Ireland, and about 1% other religions, for a total of 96%. It doesn't get much more religious than that in the developed world. So maybe you should be looking at the last 15 years or so instead of comparing to previous generations.

However, this is Ireland. When asked their religion, many Irish people would say that they are Catholic. When asked if they believe in God, the same people might well say no. There are many cultural Catholics, who have either no religious belief or a very vague belief in God.

That doesn't necessarily mean that there hasn't been a decline in religious belief since 1998, but by the mid-90's, church attendance and deference to the church had decreased considerably.

 

[westprog]

The blame for the crusades isn't on theism, it's on Catholicism.

Right. We don't put the blame on an abstract concept, we blame a specific belief system. Catholicism (actually just Christianity then) must be blamed for the Crusades, but Catholicism involves religious belief.

In the same way, Pol Pot and Stalin involved Marxist-Leninism - which is an explicitly atheistic system.

 

[westprog]

Really? You declaim like a merkin. also you have not yet identified whereabouts you are from.

Right, so you just make stuff up. Who needs evidence, when you have a vague hunch that you can polish up into a supposition?

You appear not to live in this country.

Considering that I've managed to disprove several things that you've been claiming, what does that say about you? I clearly know more factually about Ireland than you do.

Do not disrespect my murdered friends.

Is that how you show respect to your friends? Using them as emotional backup in a debate on the internet? They would be so proud.

However, you were proven wrong in your claim that most political violence didn't take place in Northern Ireland. Proven. You obviously aren't going to quote what was actually said, so here it is.

This is of course separate from the political violence which was mostly located in the North, and which peaked in the early 70's.

New italics.

That is flat out wrong.

Why is it that when someone says "mostly" people feel the need to read it as "entirely, without exception". If political violence had been exclusively in the North, then I wouldn't have said "mostly". I know about McCabe, and the Dublin and Monaghan bombings - not to mention Birmingham and the other attacks in England.

Reference to the CAIN database of the Troubles will tell us that of over 3500 deaths, 115 were in the Republic.

That's the trouble with debating on a skeptic's forum, rather than shouting in a pub. You can't claim that someone said something they didn't say. It's all right there.

This is why I don't try to use subjective personal experience as evidence for sweeping assertions. I might have thought that crime was worse in the 80's/90's - but the statistics form a far more reliable guide. Next thing is bringing out dead friends to defend an untenable position.

 

[catsmate]

Bump.
Based on lasy year's census (link) the no religion/agnostic/atheist grouping has increased by >400% between 1991 and 2011.

 

[lionking]

Hinduism is the fastest growing religion in Australia, but "no religion" is growing steadily, and is now the single biggest category (unless you count Christianity as one religion, which I don't).

http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/CO-61?opendocument&navpos=620

The number of people reporting 'No religion' increased significantly, from 18.7 per cent of the population in 2006 to 22.3 per cent in 2011.

 

[rjh01]

Hinduism is the fastest growing religion in Australia, but "no religion" is growing steadily, and is now the single biggest category (unless you count Christianity as one religion, which I don't).

http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/CO-61?opendocument&navpos=620

This is slightly misleading. The number of Christians deceased by about the same number as no religion increased. Hinduism remains only a small religion in Australia having 1.3% of the population. Buddhism is more popular with 2.5%. The strange thing is none of these religions had a decrease in numbers. So where did they come from?

 

[Craig4]

I only hope Ireland is ready for the violence and criminality so often associated with atheism's lack of a moral compass. The peace and unity of past decades will be but a happy memory. Very sad.

Really? The Nordic countries should be failed states if that were true.

 

[westprog]

Bump.

I thought I'd killed it.

Based on lasy year's census (link) the no religion/agnostic/atheist grouping has increased by >400% between 1991 and 2011.

It's interesting to see how few people were willing to identify as atheist or agnostic, and how many now feel able to say they have no religion. Perhaps "atheist" involves more commitment than many people are willing to give.

I can well imagine the same people having the same beliefs, but identifying themselves differently year on year - initially calling themselves Catholic by default, then claiming no religion - then finally subscribing to atheism, perhaps, in the future. Or perhaps not. Rejection of religion as belief for many people has not removed the central nature of Catholicism in national life.

 

[westprog]

Rejection of religion as belief for many people has not removed the central nature of Catholicism in national life.

Or, contrariwise, for others rejection of the Catholic church as an institution has not removed the religious impulse entirely.

 

[abaddon]

I thought I'd killed it.



It's interesting to see how few people were willing to identify as atheist or agnostic, and how many now feel able to say they have no religion. Perhaps "atheist" involves more commitment than many people are willing to give.

I can well imagine the same people having the same beliefs, but identifying themselves differently year on year - initially calling themselves Catholic by default, then claiming no religion - then finally subscribing to atheism, perhaps, in the future. Or perhaps not. Rejection of religion as belief for many people has not removed the central nature of Catholicism in national life.

Or, contrariwise, for others rejection of the Catholic church as an institution has not removed the religious impulse entirely.

I brought my kids to mass this weekend. Perhaps an odd thing to do, given that I am a heathen unbeliever.

You might ask why I did that, as an atheist.

The answer is simple community. It was the third anniversary of the death of a great man. His widow, who myself and my siblings refer to this day as mammy v2, derives comfort from having all of those generations around her in her bereavment. I believe in no god, but if I can take a simple 45 minutes that helps someone I care about feel better, then I will happily do so.

The point is that the church in Ireland is far more about social and community issues, not about faith at all.

Case in point. I am being harassed at the mo to become a parish council member, despite being a blatant atheist, and despite being forthright in extremis in my views.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Right. We don't put the blame on an abstract concept, we blame a specific belief system. Catholicism (actually just Christianity then) must be blamed for the Crusades, but Catholicism involves religious belief.

In the same way, Pol Pot and Stalin involved Marxist-Leninism - which is an explicitly atheistic system.

Actually I'd argue that they were no more Marxist-Leninist than they were Christian Democrat (they were Stalinists) but that's just a trivial little correction.

The point that you seem to be missing is that yes, Pol Pot and Stalin were followers of (in one case the creator of) an explicitly atheistic system but that it's an irrelevant thing.

For example, you could have an explicitly christian system that commits atrocities, but that doesn't mean that the atrocities were committed in the NAME of religion. A perfect example of this is the ongoing catholic priest child rape scandal. Yes, these people are all religious, but they weren't committing these acts because they were religious. Stalinists don't kill because they are atheists, they kill because they want to keep their statist authoritarian power. The crimes of Stalinist Russia wouldn't have been about Christianity if it had been an explicitly Christian regime. The crimes of the Crusades or the Inquisition were done FOR their religion.

 

[Tristan Chi]

My belief in Ireland is firmly evidence-based. Top of the morning!

 

[abaddon]

My belief in Ireland is firmly evidence-based. Top of the morning!

And may the road rise wit ya!

 

[Henry Skinner]

My belief in Ireland is firmly evidence-based. Top of the morning!

And the evidence looks like this:

 

[catsmate]

Another survey, August 2013.

Bump.
A new survey (for the Student Marketing Network) has shown that

• 57.8% of tertiary students surveyed claim to be Catholic, as against 84.1% of the general population [2011 census]; 2.2% identify as protestant [2.8% in the 2011 census]
• 37.5% believe in a god, 41.5% are unsure
• 20% identify as atheists
• of those not following a religion, 77.8% state this was due to not believing the teachings of religions
• 39% say they attend communal religious ceremonies, averaging ~2 visits per year
• of those attending catholics 61.5% took communion, even though approximately half of them did not accept transubstantiation
• of those students who did follow a religion, 45.2% did so due to parental influence
• 40% of respondents didn’t want their children to follow the same religion they were brought up
• 65.6% did not believe religion makes the world a better place
• 76.8% think that the catholic church has too much influence in Ireland
• 54% do not believe society needs the influence of religion
• 13.7% followed a religion due to "strong faith"
• 11.7% said that they follow religious teachings in general life
• religious beliefs ranked sixth (after "looking good") in a listing of things held important to the surveyed students
• 83.3% support legalisation of abortion on terms more liberal than the recent legal changes allow for

There were 1,146 respondents 51.2% female, 48.8% male. I'm attempting to obtain the full report/survey.
Links: here, here, here, here.

 

[Craig B]

I visited Ireland in the clearly seventies, and then not again for thirty years. The change in the influence of the Church was quite stupendous. At the earlier date I was smuggling contraceptives into the country for friends who lived there. At the later one they were on sale from vending machines in pub toilets.

 

[Acleron]

From the Catholic Herald

'These bodies are part of the very fabric of Irish Catholic life. Unlike the UK, such religious bodies actually do have influence and power for good in their society. Let’s hope that they all agree the new law fundamentally flouts the hospital’s ethos and refuse to implement it. Will other similar institutions follow suit? What could the Government do in the face of united opposition among its own citizens?

There is a wider question behind all this: how Catholic is Ireland today?

The Catholic Church was always behind the times.