Decline in religious belief in Ireland

[abaddon]

Massive emigration in the '80's, which slowed down for the Celtic Tiger. Didn't stop altogether though.

And so what?

There was net immigration, but a lot of graduates still looked for jobs in the UK and USA,

And so what?

while stacks of Poles came in for the building boom, lived in one-bedroom flats while they saved their money, and went home when it all fell apart. Now emigration is up again, and for the most part, the emigrants don't come home when things revive.

Your racism is showing.

There are lots of possible reasons for crime in Ireland. Unemployment, drugs, a change in value systems. The troubles almost certainly contributed.

Yet you single out only one, the loss of religious buffoonery. Why is that?

When heroin came in that made a massive difference in society.

Get current. The H ball is yesterday.

Also, people drink a lot more, which may be a surprise to those used to the stereotype.

Oddly, less. yup less. All of the statistics say less. You go ahead and chase that rainbow, and abuse that leprechaun. Let me know when you find that crock of ..... whatever.

 

[westprog]

Yet you single out only one, the loss of religious buffoonery. Why is that?

I really don't know how to cope with this kind of debating style. I raised a number of possible reasons why crime statistics have changed. You then demand why I don't give all the possible reasons.

I've noticed before this insistence on arguing against something that wasn't said or implied.

I'm going out of my way to tell people that it's not possible to establish a clear causal relationship when there are a number of possible reasons which can be connected. That's because I'm not trying to make cheap and easy points by being misleading.

Get current. The H ball is yesterday.

Well, lucky you. I can assure you that the upsurge in coke didn't mean that heroin disappeared.

Oddly, less. yup less. All of the statistics say less. You go ahead and chase that rainbow, and abuse that leprechaun. Let me know when you find that crock of ..... whatever.

Less since when? I've made it quite clear that I'm discussing long term trends. The Celtic Tiger accompanied an increase in drinking, and in drunken violence on the street. As with crime, there may well be fluctuations up and down, but on a generational basis, there's more drinking.

 

[abaddon]

I really don't know how to cope with this kind of debating style. I raised a number of possible reasons why crime statistics have changed. You then demand why I don't give all the possible reasons.

No, you claimed it was due to a lack of belief in supersticious nonsense

I've noticed before this insistence on arguing against something that wasn't said or implied.

Except when YOU implied it.

I'm going out of my way to tell people that it's not possible to establish a clear causal relationship when there are a number of possible reasons which can be connected.

Except when you did it. Apparently that doesn't count. Right?

That's because I'm not trying to make cheap and easy points by being misleading.

That is exactly what you are doing. Nothing I can say can cheapen you more than you have already done so.

Well, lucky you. I can assure you that the upsurge in coke didn't mean that heroin disappeared.

Sure, cast vomit upon those with an addiction.

Less since when? I've made it quite clear that I'm discussing long term trends. The Celtic Tiger accompanied an increase in drinking, and in drunken violence on the street. As with crime, there may well be fluctuations up and down, but on a generational basis, there's more drinking.

No, you have made it clear that all you have is bile and hate. I pity you.

 

[westprog]

No, you claimed it was due to a lack of belief in supersticious nonsense


Except when YOU implied it.


Except when you did it. Apparently that doesn't count. Right?

That is exactly what you are doing. Nothing I can say can cheapen you more than you have already done so.

No, this isn't true. I don't know what's going on in your head, but I think that it must be pretty clear that if I say that there are multiple possible causes for crime, then I can't really be trying to make out that crime is only caused by that one thing. It's pretty basic, really.

Sure, cast vomit upon those with an addiction.

What, is it preferable to pretend they don't exist any more? Your "heroin is so passé" stance is respectful?

The Irish drug scene took off with Heroin in a big way in the eighties. (Though certainly hash and speed were available earlier than that). With the Celtic Tiger, cocaine became a popular bourgeois drug, with formerly respectable people giving large sums to particularly vicious criminals. A number of famous, popular figures ended up dying of cocaine abuse or related effects.

No, you have made it clear that all you have is bile and hate. I pity you.

How very odd.

 

[abaddon]

No, this isn't true. I don't know what's going on in your head,

Reality.

but I think that it must be pretty clear that if I say that there are multiple possible causes for crime, then I can't really be trying to make out that crime is only caused by that one thing. It's pretty basic, really.

Yeah, whatever YOU say must be true, right?

What, is it preferable to pretend they don't exist any more? Your "heroin is so passé" stance is respectful?

The reality on the ground is far more meaningful.

How very odd.

Indeed you are.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

There are lots of possible reasons for crime in Ireland. Unemployment, drugs, a change in value systems. The troubles almost certainly contributed. When heroin came in that made a massive difference in society. Also, people drink a lot more, which may be a surprise to those used to the stereotype.

Wrong end of the stick being grabbed there - I was meaning the topic of the opening post not crime!

 

[Warrior1461]

During the Cold War the USA went hyper religious because that seemed the best alternative to communism. We got JESUS to protect us from the godless commie nukes. We put In god We trust on our money, Put "One Nation under god" in the pledge of alliegance which was never there to begin with.

This decline in religiosity is happening all over Europe and even in the USA which is far more religious than Ireland.

The reason one of the main causes is 9/11. People saw the dangerous stupidity of religion and then learned how truly evil religion can become, after hearing about what these people believe in. Like the Cold War will Jesus be the better alternative, No because after the WTC collapsed Falwell and Robertson opened their mouths and other Christians started spewing things that are more in line with the Taliban than anything else. We are seeing them become just as homophobic and sexist as the worst Muslim radical and pushing in our schools a ridiculous anti-science curriculum.

Then we have the Vatican covering up sex abuse of children, as icing on the feces cake.

Were can one turn, there is Judaism, if you listen to Jews like Lewis Black even He will tell you being a JEW SUCKS.

So in this day and age atheism is starting to look like the more logical choice to a growing number of people.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

What do you expect me to say that I didn't already point out?

I'd like you to answer the questions that I asked you.

There used to be far less crime in Ireland a generation ago.

Please provide evidence to back up this assertion.

 

[westprog]

I'd like you to answer the questions that I asked you.

As far as I'm aware, I've addressed all the questions I was asked. Please be more specific.

Please provide evidence to back up this assertion.

Murder statistics, Ireland since 1951.

I think that it would be reasonable to say that an increase in the murder rate from 4 to 78 was substantial enough.

Note that in a broadly similar period in the USA, the crime rate increased to about half as much again, peaking at about two and a half times.

It's fairly clear that in terms of violent, extreme crime, Ireland had a massive societal transformation. Bear in mind also that even while in Northern Ireland, political murders were peaking at up to nearly 500 in a year, in the Irish Republic they remained low. When political murders in the North dropped into single figures for the first time since the start of the Troubles, they had shot up to over 40 in the Republic.

 

[westprog]

Indeed.

I suggest a look at the table I posted. It may be that in the 80's/early 90's you might have been more likely to have your car broken into, or your house burgled, your chances of being murdered were two or three times greater from 1995 on - the start of the Celtic Tiger.

Look at the tables of ordinary crime statistics, and it's clear that crime never went substantially down once it hit the 100,000 mark in the early '80's. Or, if you prefer, you could go by the half-remembered experiences of one person with an agenda. Whatever you feel is more reliable.

 

[westprog]

Double post.

 

[abaddon]

As far as I'm aware, I've addressed all the questions I was asked. Please be more specific.



Murder statistics, Ireland since 1951.

I think that it would be reasonable to say that an increase in the murder rate from 4 to 78 was substantial enough.

Note that in a broadly similar period in the USA, the crime rate increased to about half as much again, peaking at about two and a half times.

It's fairly clear that in terms of violent, extreme crime, Ireland had a massive societal transformation. Bear in mind also that even while in Northern Ireland, political murders were peaking at up to nearly 500 in a year, in the Irish Republic they remained low. When political murders in the North dropped into single figures for the first time since the start of the Troubles, they had shot up to over 40 in the Republic.

Yet there you are with the biggest prison population per head. Why is that?

 

[westprog]

Yet there you are with the biggest prison population per head. Why is that?

I don't have any prisoners that I am aware of.

The point of including the US murder statistics (which are of course massively higher than Ireland) is to show that the Irish increase wasn't part of a global trend.

 

[abaddon]

I don't have any prisoners that I am aware of.

The point of including the US murder statistics (which are of course massively higher than Ireland) is to show that the Irish increase wasn't part of a global trend.

So why do you have the biggest death row population, and why do we have the smallest murder rate?

Annie get your gun.

 

[westprog]

So why do you have the biggest death row population

I don't have any death row population. You appear to be under a misapprehension. You can keep it with all the others. Like the violence from the troubles not being mostly in Northern Ireland, or the decline in crime since the mid-90's.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

As far as I'm aware, I've addressed all the questions I was asked. Please be more specific.

Interesting that you dodge and dive. I wonder why?

Murder statistics, Ireland since 1951.

I think that it would be reasonable to say that an increase in the murder rate from 4 to 78 was substantial enough.

Did you, by any chance, read the analysis that goes with that?

Notwithstanding much media and public concern in relation to what is perceived as an increase in violent crime, including homicide10, 11, it is apparent from the information presented here that there has been little overall change in the pattern of homicide occurring in Ireland.

[...]

While there has been some increase in the total number of homicides this increase has not been significant.

[...]

It is worth bearing in mind that the rate of homicide in this country was much greater over a 100 years ago than at present.

Doesn't really seem to back up what you're claiming, does it? And that's if you limit your original claim to homicide, rather than what you actually said, which was that there had been "a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration". You have not established that, I'm afraid, and your own source contradicts you.

 

[catsmate]

Interesting that you dodge and dive. I wonder why?



Did you, by any chance, read the analysis that goes with that?




Doesn't really seem to back up what you're claiming, does it? And that's if you limit your original claim to homicide, rather than what you actually said, which was that there had been "a massive increase in crime, violence and social disintegration". You have not established that, I'm afraid, and your own source contradicts you.

Not to mention the methodological and legal changes during the period, which are better covered in the raw CSO stats.

 

[abaddon]

I don't have any death row population.

Really? You declaim like a merkin. also you have not yet identified whereabouts you are from.

You appear to be under a misapprehension.

You appear not to live in this country.

You can keep it with all the others. Like the violence from the troubles not being mostly in Northern Ireland, or the decline in crime since the mid-90's.

Do not disrespect my murdered friends.

 

[Mister Agenda]

No true atheist, eh?

More like you'd have to be an idiot to complain to Catholics about Aztec human sacrifices and retort 'No true theist, eh?'. That's about how much Western atheists from a tradition of rational skepticism and humanism have in common with communist atheists kowtowing to an ideology that tells them they have to be atheists to bring about a worker's paradise.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Pol Pot and Stalin did what they did because of their ideology and worldview, just like the terrorists or the crusaders. Their ideology happened to be atheist, and the crusaders happened not to be.

If one is determined to exonerate atheism from blame, and to place blame on theism, then I suppose it's possible, but I don't see it as soundly based.

The blame for the crusades isn't on theism, it's on Catholicism.