Dec. 7th, 2014, 73 years later.

[LSSBB]

Would you please care to prove to us that WWIII would have happened? And would you please tell us what you are comparing against when you speak of relatively stable business environments? Tell us how the world would have gone to hell-in-a-handbasket if we hadn't allowed the military-industrial complex to run this country on fear and paranoia. And while you're at it, you might wish to add your explanation of how we should deal with $16 trillion in debt. Sell off some billion-dollar battleships and aircraft carriers? Or maybe put some nukes up on eBay.

I can't prove it would have happened, however we did have a cold war, and well, you know, it never got really very hot now, did it? Although there certainly was a bit of expansion in the Soviet sphere. I can be pretty sure that chances of more expansionary war happening were a bit better with no military expenditures.

There does seems to be a difference in the occurrence of world wars before 1945 and after.

That all said, maybe you noticed that in times of peace (post-cold-war, post WOT), there have been drawdowns. Including, well, the retirement of aircraft carriers, and the return of military members back to the civilian workforce.

So, how is the remembering of Pearl Harbor relate to ranting on the military-industrial complex, anyway? Would you like another thread on the subject? Maybe there is one already that you could post these to.

 

[MG1962]

I was in Japan for the 40th anniversary, C-FAY Yokosuka, and the first thing I saw when I went to quarters was two Japanese flags on warships on the opposite of the pier. It reminded me that we could heal.

I recall a documentary they made a few years back where they brought groups of US veterans and Japanese veterans put them in a room and let them explore both how they felt about their part in the war and how after all these years how they felt about their former enemy.

I saw another one with a re-union of the British 8th Army and the Afrika corp. About an hour in the whole thing had descended into a drinking contest and who could tell the dirtiest story Great stuff

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I recall a documentary they made a few years back where they brought groups of US veterans and Japanese veterans put them in a room and let them explore both how they felt about their part in the war and how after all these years how they felt about their former enemy.

I saw another one with a re-union of the British 8th Army and the Afrika corp. About an hour in the whole thing had descended into a drinking contest and who could tell the dirtiest story Great stuff

The Pearl Harbor Survivors Association invited Japanese veterans of the raid to ceremonies at Oahu for years.

 

[Craig B]

I saw another one with a re-union of the British 8th Army and the Afrika corp. About an hour in the whole thing had descended into a drinking contest and who could tell the dirtiest story Great stuff

Do Eastern Front veterans stage events of this kind?

 

[Damien Evans]

And what is our return on investment in the U.S. for 60 years of keeping open the word's Sea Lines of Communication and relatively stable environments for business, in the absence of an actual WW III? Maybe the U.N. would have done with that for us.

 

[Craig B]

So we've to accept the dominion of the US, and its "stable environments for business". When the UK was world hegemon that environment included "imperial preference" but when she took control, the USA soon put a stop to that!

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The world changed for average Americans that day in 1941.

Remembering Pearl Harbor causes me to remember that awful movie, so I try to forget it.

 

[MG1962]

Do Eastern Front veterans stage events of this kind?

I really have no idea. But given the venom with which the Eastern Front was fought. I would be genuinely surprised.

 

[MG1962]

Remembering Pearl Harbor causes me to remember that awful movie, so I try to forget it.

Tora Tora Tora was not that bad surely???

 

[bluesjnr]

Do you have some other, less obvious point?

No, is there anything in particular you'd like to address with me?

 

[bluesjnr]

Maybe if we had stood by and done nothing in Vietnam, instead of as usual, propping up a series of corrupt, murderous two-bit dictators, we'd have saved a couple of trillion $ and achieved the same losing result. Maybe if we'd stood by and done nothing in Iraq, we'd have not only saved three trillion $ but the region would probably be more stable. Ever since WWII, U.S. foreign policy has been dominated by a series of expensive military adventures that do nothing but milk the taxpayers for trillions, line the pockets of military contractors, and get their political backers reelected. Not to mention getting lots of people killed for no good reason. Now the American people are getting suckered into another war against ISIS. If ISIS is a threat to the region, let the threatened countries (Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia) pay for and fight their own ******* war!

Maybe, I guess it's down to those taxpayers to ring the changes in the event that they are not happy with these interventionist policies and profiteers

 

[Craig B]

Tora Tora Tora was not that bad surely???

I quite liked TTT but the later one was something else altogether. Wiki relates this, which is plain weird, and I didn't know it.

Pearl Harbor became a major box office success, earning nearly $450 million worldwide and was nominated for four Academy Awards, winning in the category of Sound Editing. However, it was also nominated for six Golden Raspberry Awards, including Worst Picture. This marked the first occurrence of a Worst Picture-nominated film winning an Academy Award

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_(film)

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Tora Tora Tora was not that bad surely???

"Tora, Tora, Tora" was one of the more accurate historical movies I've seen, but it had one major flaw. Admiral Yamamoto has a status in Japan similar to George Washington's status in the average American's eyes. But he never said "We have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." The produced admitted to making that up to give a slightly upbeat ending for the American audience.

 

[MG1962]

"Tora, Tora, Tora" was one of the more accurate historical movies I've seen, but it had one major flaw. Admiral Yamamoto has a status in Japan similar to George Washington's status in the average American's eyes. But he never said "We have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." The produced admitted to making that up to give a slightly upbeat ending for the American audience.

From an Australian perspective the biggest 'flaw' in the film is the presence of a significant number of Australian warships in Pearl during the filming of the attack.
The producers did the filming once A series of naval exercises wERE completed and the various navies went back to Pearl for some R&R - Gave the port a nice full look

 

[jhunter1163]

"Tora, Tora, Tora" was one of the more accurate historical movies I've seen, but it had one major flaw. Admiral Yamamoto has a status in Japan similar to George Washington's status in the average American's eyes. But he never said "We have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." The produced admitted to making that up to give a slightly upbeat ending for the American audience.

To be fair, he was quoted to that effect (though not in those words) later on. From Wiki:

"A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack."[5]

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

From an Australian perspective the biggest 'flaw' in the film is the presence of a significant number of Australian warships in Pearl during the filming of the attack.
The producers did the filming once A series of naval exercises wERE completed and the various navies went back to Pearl for some R&R - Gave the port a nice full look

I noticed the frigates immediately. Nobody heard my groan.

Did you know that the large-scale model of Nevada started her break for the sea too soon and they had to race around to Hospital Point to get shots of her moving?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

To be fair, he was quoted to that effect (though not in those words) later on. From Wiki:

I have a thread here about his attitude toward the fact that the attack came before the declaration of war. It was a Japanese tradition, so he couldn't very well claim it was a mistake.

 

[Craig B]

I have a thread here about his attitude toward the fact that the attack came before the declaration of war. It was a Japanese tradition, so he couldn't very well claim it was a mistake.

Yes indeed.

In 1904, the Japanese attacked the Russian fleet at Port Arthur before the formal declaration of war was received in Moscow, surprising the Russian navy and earning an early victory.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1899-1913/portsmouth-treaty

Didn't they get out the very 1904 signal flag to be raised by Yamamoto when he launched his strike?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes indeed. https://history.state.gov/milestones/1899-1913/portsmouth-treaty

Didn't they get out the very 1904 signal flag to be raised by Yamamoto when he launched his strike?

The same signal, "Z", was hoisted, I don't know if was the same flag.

Oh, and Yamamoto was in Kagoshima Bay, aboard his flagship. Nagumo Chuichi was the top dog for Kido Butai (Striking Force). He would also lead the KB in the Midway battle. Karma.

 

[I Ratant]

You were standing by and doing nothing.

.
Doing "nothing" in March, 1941...