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Debunk Alert: Experiment to Test for Eutectic Reaction

We have only the word of an anonymous poster so stop making that claim until you are willing to identify yourself and SHOW your credentials.
T.A.M. has already stated his credentials. What's more, he has demonstrated knowledge of science and of the usual processes of scientific publication.

Christopher7 appears to be an anonymous poster with no known credentials, and his posts reveal considerable ignorance of science and the tradition of scientific publication.

Until Christopher7 identifies himself and states his own credentials, his attacks on others' identity, knowledge, and credentials deserve this response: :p
 
The temperatures that vaporized lead can only be explained by thermite. Thermite was found in the WTC dust and your denial of this is just denial. There were two authors from BYU listed on that paper, Dr. Farrer (as second author) and Daniel Farnsworth. Their affiliation with the BYU Department of Physics and Astronomy was listed in the paper, with the approval of BYU.

Spell it out Brigham Young University. How many wive do you have?
 
By the way, people, I recommend we folks put Chris on ignore. He's continually demonstrated an utter inability to learn the facts of 9/11, let alone comprehend their impact or significance. He may not be as oblivious as someone like Ultima or Jammonius is, but at the same time, he's an empty suit as far as knowledge of 9/11 is. We've been repeating the same arguments to him for years now, but he's not learned a damn thing from them.

Besides which, there's actually a quite legitimate question posted by Red in the OP that deserves attention:
As Cole points out, whereas there may be sources for sulfur in the building materials, how did it enter the intergranular structure?


Sisson and Biederman touch on it in their "Metal Removal via Slag Attack of the Steel from Building 7 of the World Trade Center" paper:
In the regions of the beam that exhibited extensive metal removal, an intergranular liquid slag attack was observed (Fig. 4). Scanning electron microscopy (SEM) with energy-dispersive X-ray spectroscopy (EDS) identified the slag to be comprised of Fe, O, and S (Fig. 5). Chemical reactions including oxidation, sulfidation, and decarburization occurred, as well as the ususually observed phase transformations in the steel.

The formation of the slag is itself something interesting; Dr. Frank Greening, in his "Sulfur and the World Trade Center Disaster" paper noted that
... combustion of materials (such as coal) that naturally contain small amounts of sulfur, chlorine, sodium and potassium salts and/or calcium-alumino-silicates, leads to the formation of low viscosity melts or slags. These slags, which form in various regions of the combustion train, have melting points as low as 400oC and are known to be extremely corrosive to steel surfaces...

He goes into a little detail, but the point is that the burning of organic materials can eventually lead to the sort of Fe/FeS/FeO slags that Sisson and Biederman's team noted.

Now, we know one general way the slags can be created, and from other references in Dr. Greening's paper, we know these slags are extremely corrosive. That right there explains a lot of what was seen: Thinning, holes, etc. But Red's question was about how the sulfur ended up within the steel's intergranular structure. That, too, is explained in Sisson and Biederman:
This microstructure shows the scale and slag reaction effects at the top of the micrograph and the normal metallurgical reactions that occurred in this steel on heating and cooling toward the bottom. As the temperature increased, some changes in the microstructure of the steel occurred as a result of heating and cooling. However, as higher temperatures occurred, microstructural as well as chemistry changes occurred due to the reactions with the environment. The interaction of heat in a corrosive fire environment resulted in exposing the steel to sulfidation, oxidation, and reductions in thickness.

In short, it's a combination of the physical changes steel goes through in high temperatures, as well as the chemical reactions. To understand the physical phase changes: Google for "steel phase diagram". Here's one example:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Steel_pd.svg/420px-Steel_pd.svg.png

Then, look up the individual phases themselves (Austenite, pearlite, cementite, etc.) to see what they are. In summary: Steel (iron with some carbon in it) will go through some changes in their structure depending on the temperatures it experiences. Carbon-steel graining will form and become apparent within a layer of a given phase; here's a quick, simple page laying out some examples of this:
http://www.metallography.com/types.htm

The specifics of the differences between the phases and the graining layers they produce is not important; what's important is that they'll form boundaries between the different grainings. Those grain layers end up being significant:
Biederman said:
Second, the slag preferentially attacked the grain boundaries (Fig. 9). This grain-boundary attack and metal dissolution was the cause of the severe metal removal in some sections of the beam.

Why the slag attacks the boundaries is not clear to me. I'd guess that it has something to do with differing grain formations not meshing well, but that's a complete and total wild guess. But that's not important; the fact remains that the boundaries are somehow susceptible to chemical attack. And the iron-sulfide/iron-oxide containing slag goes right to work on those boundaries, thus insinuating the FeS into the intergranular structure. Those chemical attacks continue, forming Fe/FeS/FeO eutectics which, being liquid, presumably drip or pour away somehow. And when that happens, more areas and layers are exposed to slag attack, repeating the cycle until the temperatures drop enough to freeze things in place.

And that's basically it. The fires form slag. They also start steel towards forming different phases. The slag then attacks the steel along the boundaries of those phases, forming eutectics, eroding away steel, and exposing more layers to attack. And when the fires go out and the reactions "freeze", you're left with the corrosions that caught Astaneh-Asl's attention and led the Worchester researchers to study the affected steel. And the microstructures that are left (which the Worchester folks studied) end up being composed of areas of regular steel, and areas where FeO and FeS are insinuated between the grain boundaries. So in short, the sulfur manages to get into the intergranular structure through a combination of physical phase changes in the steel and chemical reactions.

-----

Chemists, metallurgists, anyone who knows more than I do: Feel free to post corrections for any errors I may have made above. This was written with the best of my knowledge, but I've got a decade-plus old degree, and much of the info Dr. Greening, WPI, and others published is a struggle for me to understand well.
 
tsig said:
spell it out Brigham Young University.
Lots of truth over there.
Former BYU prof. Steven Jones said:
Behold My Hands: Evidence for Christ's Visit in Ancient America

Several years ago, an idea popped into my head: Would people in the New World who also saw Jesus Christ leave memorials of this supernal experience by showing marked hands of Deity in their artwork? So I began a search with the following hypothesis-to be tested: Ancient artwork portraying a deity with deliberate markings on his hands will be found somewhere in the Americas. A crazy idea, maybe - but wait till you see the artwork of the ancient Maya!
The photo-analysis in that article was as keen as the JFK stuff we see in the CT forum. Dots on hands of Mayan god = Jesus.
 
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There was MOLTEN METAL seen at the scene. Given the temperatures recorded in the debris pile, it is much more likely that molten metal was aluminum or copper, then iron or steel. Does that mean it was impossible...no, just much much less likely....us Occam.
I respectfully disagree with your position that the molten metal was "more likely" aluminum or copper.

However, I thank you for acknowledging that the molten metal reported as steel could have been molten iron or steel.

The evidence points towards exploding transformers (there were many transformers in the building, exposed to heat, damage, and power surges), exploding aeresol or oxygen cannisters (there were plenty of each, both exposed to areas of excessive heat and physical damage), and falling debris.
Like hell it does. :D You guys grope for alternate explanations in an attempt to deny the witnesses statements. You refuse to follow your own suggestion that the simplist explanation is usually the right one.

The evidence, IN NO WAY, points towards explosives.
I must disagree with you again. The evidence definitely points toward explosives.

In studies done cataloging the injuries presented at ERs from survivors of the attacks, there is no mention, NO MENTION, of barotrauma that would have certainly been seen with the use of multiple piles of explosives. There was no det cord, there was no explosive residue found or mentioned.
It can't be because . . . . No sale.

Jones says these chips were in good quantity in his samples, yet RJ and other groups make no mention of such things in their samples...and the whole "not gonna find it if ya aint lookin for it crap" does not hold water.
In their response to Dr. Jones, NIST admitted that they never looked for explosive residue. [FONT=&quot]Pg 4: NIST did not test for the presence of explosive residue[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/NISTresponseToRequestForCorrectionGourleyEtal2.pdf[/FONT]
 
Nay, nay, says the denier. Here is a list of reasons why I don't believe the thermite paper is valid. Here is a list of reasons why I don't believe Steven Jones.

Haven't seen your list of reasons why y'all don't believe Neils Harrit and Dr. Farrer yet but I'm sure you have one.

The iron spheres are the result of molten iron being atomized into tiny droplets, one quarter the width of a human hair, with explosives. They made up nearly 6% of the WTC dust.

No one has come up with a viable alternate explanation for the abundance of iron spheres inside and on top of the Bankers Trust building. Any microscopic spheres from cutting would not be carried, like spheres in the dust cloud from the collapses, to the interior and roof of a building several hundred feet away.

The explosive melted the steel then blew it away?
 
I
I must disagree with you again. The evidence definitely points toward explosives.

I thought it was therm?te. Well, anyway, then all that is left is for you to do is actually convince somebody who can actually DO something about it that you're not pulling things out of your nether regions, because from what I can see the engineering, scientific, and law enforcement communities disagree with you.
 
Hey all,

Hope summer is going well for you. someone on my youtube channel recommended that I check out Jon Cole's experiment. I tried to post some comments on the blog but they haven't shown up yet...

Main problems I see with the experiment are

1) The amount of gypsum available is not quantified properly, in the context of what was in the towers and might have been present. I see no reason to expect the small amounts Cole uses to be meaningful.

2) The WTC fires burned for weeks and there were lots of other materials present, this is not represented in the experiment at all, to my knowledge.

3) IIRC FEMA scientists expected the reaction to take place in the temp zone of ordinary fires, not requiring thermite at all. Either way, the experiment doesn't actually address the alleged presence of thermite.

4) The experiment doesn't demonstrate how thermite could have produced the eutectic erosion, so it doesnt' really validate anything.

Little ado about not much, IMHO.
 
Indeed! Dr. Greening is truly Stundie worthy. :D

We all say it is so, therefore, it must be so. :D :D

:D :D :D Iron makes up a tiny percentage of the human body and it is dispersed. There is no way it could form into spheres when a body is crushed. This is getting hilarious.

That is precisely what happened. The spheres were carried in the collapse dust clouds the blanketed lower Manhattan and were deposited everywhere the dust went. This includes the interior and the roof of the Bankers Trust building. There is no mechanism for any appreciable amount of spheres to be deposited there later.

you are now out of your league and have no idea what you are talking about. You are wrong on all accounts.

TAM:)
 
Columns and beams "grinding" against each other in a collapse don't produce iron spheres like a high speed grinding wheel does. You are playing with semantics again.

oh really, and you know this how? Oh, wait, let me guess...truther "common sense". What a *********** joke. I don't play...semantics or otherwise.

TAM
 
Correct. liquify = become or make liquid

But since
melt = become liquid from solid state by adding heat
your conclusion that liquify means melt is wrong, as it ignores the many other ways that something could be made liquid other than adding heat to a solid body.
For example, having a hot body undergo a eutetic reaction might result in a liquid - without adding extra heat.

and how much steel was disolved by sisson's experiment with slag consisting of iron, oxygen, and sulfur in 24 hrs?
 
I respectfully disagree with your position that the molten metal was "more likely" aluminum or copper.

However, I thank you for acknowledging that the molten metal reported as steel could have been molten iron or steel.

Like hell it does. :D You guys grope for alternate explanations in an attempt to deny the witnesses statements. You refuse to follow your own suggestion that the simplist explanation is usually the right one.

I must disagree with you again. The evidence definitely points toward explosives.

It can't be because . . . . No sale.

In their response to Dr. Jones, NIST admitted that they never looked for explosive residue. [FONT=&quot]Pg 4: NIST did not test for the presence of explosive residue[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/NISTresponseToRequestForCorrectionGourleyEtal2.pdf[/FONT]

The above ignorance, and refusal to accept what clearly is the more logical explanation (exploding transformers and pressurized containers along with falling debris versus exotic unproven steel melting paint on spray) gets you back on ignore Chris. You might be relatively civil in your discussion, but your complete refusal to acknowledge the obvious and simplest answer means there is no sense in discussing anything with you.

Good bye

TAM:)
 
Indeed, our opinions are irrelevant. Only the facts matter.

Fact: Iron microspheres made up nearly 6% of the dust in and on top of the Bankers Trust building. The dust was deposited there on 9/11 when the huge clouds of dust from the collapses of the Trade Towers enveloped lower Manhattan.[/QUOTE]

Proof? Cite and source please.
Also, who is to say that it did not occur when the ******* airplane hit the building with something like 100 tons of knetic energy or something like that.

(Feel free to correct me if my math is off)
 
do you have any idea what surface tension means? How does that rule out spheres made via grinding?

TAM:)

its taken me awhile to catch up on this thread.
so your o.k. with the iron sphere's forming from iron coming together via surface tension to form iron microspheres?
 
Iron spheres from human remains? STUNDIE!!! :D

I can get iron from a bowl of Special K. How else do you think we get the iron in our blood?

Listen, stick to carpentry. Leave the chemistry, physics, and, well, anything else, to people much more qulaified than yourself.
 
Columns and beams "grinding" against each other in a collapse don't produce iron spheres like a high speed grinding wheel does. You are playing with semantics again.

What happens whan a huge outer column hits the ground at freefall speed from 1,000' in the air? I bet it sparked. Alot.
 
Columns and beams "grinding" against each other in a collapse don't produce iron spheres like a high speed grinding wheel does. You are playing with semantics again.

Most power grinders don't weigh 30,000 tons. There was tremendous forces being applied between the steel columns as the building collapsed.
 

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