Debunk Alert: Experiment to Test for Eutectic Reaction

[BigAl]

Yes, what were the findings of the "further processing" done to the evidence? Is that documented?

probably. why don't you investigate and let us know what you find.

 

[beachnut]

Yes, what were the findings of the "further processing" done to the evidence? Is that documented?

DNA -

Human remains were separated and placed into protective containers and then removed to the on-site morgue for further analysis

. People were identified, the people who died on 911 due to the terrorists you apologize for.

What does this have to do with the eutectic?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

i know they were marked and that could help determine where they were located in the wtc.

And yet interestingly you implied this was not the case by asking me to source it. No there's one other possibility; you didn't read the NIST report at all.

also just 9 days after from wtc 7 (9 days? do you think they were digging deep in the debris pile):

As you asked me to source my own material I'd like to know where this is from. I'm not familiar with such a time frame ever being claimed.

your right!! no need to save those flanges that had been reduced to razor thin in just a couple of weeks or that piece of wtc 7 steel that lost 15.9mm of a36 steel in 9 days!!! lets just melt it down and make a new boat for the military with it!

Save your sarcasm for someone else. I'm merely stating that the NIST chose samples that they could positively identify. Surely you would agree that taking unknown samples in an investigation which relies on a positive ID is not sound. Why then do you insist they do it anyway?

got a source stating that prof Astaneh-asl's position is that he thinks its from vicoelastic creep?

It's an educated inference. He says he saw melting and distortion like the Dali paintings yet he doesn't scream and moan about thermite despite how "compelling" it is to you. I can think of one other phenomenon he would referencing to; the sagging and twisting of steel much like what we saw when that Universal Studios facility burned to the ground. It's pretty common with these kinds of fires.

"He describes the connections as being smoothly warped, saying, “If you remember the Salvador Dali paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted—it’s kind of like that.” He adds, “That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot—perhaps around 2,000 degrees.”

Here's an example of your Salvador Dali melting explained by creep failure from WTC 5: http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/fig-4-22.jpg

note that he says nothing of viscoelastic creep.

Why should I care? He's discussing this with people who may not be familiar with the terminology. Microsoft Encarta used the word "melted" up until their last release in 2009 to describe how the steel failed because of fires. I'm not a career professional but I'm not a laymen at this either, I don't need it to be this simplified.

 

[Java Man]

DNA - .

As in Deoxyribonucleic acid? Steel columns don't have Deoxyribonucleic acid. I think we've got things confused. I'm talking about the structures remains.

You can't find enough excuses to come up with ways to accuse me of things I haven't said nor intended to say.

 

[Java Man]

probably. why don't you investigate and let us know what you find.

Can I apply the "NIST technique" and conclude just about anything I please from a small sample?

 

[leftysergeant]

Yes, what were the findings of the "further processing" done to the evidence? Is that documented?

They found wedding rings and door keys and coins. they found transistors and speaker magnets. The found bits of bone and teeth and the occassional gobbet of flesh.

They did not find blasting caps or shaped charge guides or incendiary charge shells. (There would have been oily plaster shells from the only form of thermite that would have brought down the towers, but don't ask for any more information than that. I totally do not want a twoofer to have my thermite recipe. I haven't met one bright enough to be trusted with it.)

And they found nothing that looked at all as though it had been attacked by thermite or explosives. You loose, Buckwheat.

 

[leftysergeant]

Can I apply the "NIST technique" and conclude just about anything I please from a small sample?

Seeing how well you interpret large samples, go ahead. The responce from grown-up will still be the same as the responce to all you other posts.

 

[alienentity]

But I can take the "NIST sampling technique" to prove that there were explosives given the sample was to small to rule out explosives even when explosive remains were not found. Just like they ruled that temperatures reached over 250ºC when no samples were found to be exposed to temperatures higher than 250ºC.

See, what you're doing wrong, again, is misquoting the NIST reports. You're not even quote-mining, you're incorrectly paraphrasing them, essentially parroting more dumb truther talking points.

And, once again, you're way off-topic.

Here's what NIST actually said. Correct your information and stop posting disinformation, please, for pity's sake!
NIST Executive Summary Extracted from
NIST NCSTAR 1-3 (Draft)
Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster
Mechanical and Metallurgical Analysis of Structural Steel (Draft)

'Only three locations had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 °C.
These areas were:
WTC 1, east face, floor 98, column 210, inner web,
WTC 1, east face, floor 92, column 236, inner web,
WTC 1, north face, floor 98, column 143, floor truss connector'

'Annealing studies on recovered steels established the set of time and temperature conditions necessary to alter the steel microstructure. Based on the pre-collapse photographic evidence, the microstructures of steels known to have been exposed to fire were characterized. These microstructures show no evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600 °C for any significant time.'

So in fact NIST is proving, using empirical methods (truthers should look up the meaning of that word, it does not mean what DRG thinks it means that temps were in fact well above 250, but not above 600 'for any significant time' on the samples they chose.

Regarding the canard that they didn't actually check the steel, they selected, from a huge number of samples, specimens from important areas.


'A significant number of structural pieces were recovered from locations in or near theimpact and fire damaged regions of the WTC towers, including 4 perimeter panelsdirectly hit by the airplanes and 3 core columns located within these areas'

From NIST powerpoint presentation

 

[Java Man]

They found wedding rings and door keys and coins. they found transistors and speaker magnets. The found bits of bone and teeth and the occassional gobbet of flesh.

They did not find blasting caps or shaped charge guides or incendiary charge shells. (There would have been oily plaster shells from the only form of thermite that would have brought down the towers, but don't ask for any more information than that. I totally do not want a twoofer to have my thermite recipe. I haven't met one bright enough to be trusted with it.)

And they found nothing that looked at all as though it had been attacked by thermite or explosives. You loose, Buckwheat.

Good, where's the link or reference that backs your statement. Sorry to be so distrustful, but after what I've read here, particularly TruthersLie, I am not really taking anybody's word for it just so fast.

 

[alienentity]

Can I apply the "NIST technique" and conclude just about anything I please from a small sample?

Now you're trolling. Stop that.

 

[beachnut]

As in Deoxyribonucleic acid? Steel columns don't have Deoxyribonucleic acid. I think we've got things confused. I'm talking about the structures remains.

You can't find enough excuses to come up with ways to accuse me of things I haven't said nor intended to say.

You weakly support delusions of 911 truth. Further, the closest thing to further was "further analysis", and you are off topic so much I have no clue what your point is for this thread about eutectic; which apparently only serves to expose you truthers spewing nonsense and ignorance.

Evidence was placed in secure Evidence Trailers for future processing

NIST tested steel sample to make sure they were up to standards; of of the future processing done on steel samples. Guess you missed the NIST report.

What does this have to do with the eutectic? Gee, it was found and studied. How does the eutectic support the delusions you poorly support?

 

[beachnut]

...
It would have been impossible for Barry Jennings to not have observed this massive debris cloud phenomenon. ...
MM

He was in WTC 7. He missed it. Where do all your failed opinions come from? How is Jennings in this thread about eutectic?

Jennings survives an explosion which does not blow up the stairwell, it makes it fall away. Magic explosives which suck and don't have a blast effects. Cool, you have more delusions to cover your delusions.

Make a thread about Jennings and how explosives do magic, but don't kill.

 

[Senenmut]

And yet interestingly you implied this was not the case by asking me to source it. No there's one other possibility; you didn't read the NIST report at all.

it sounded like you were implying the nist was not interesed in steel that wasnt stamped even though the steel Astaneh-asl saw was of interest and he thought it came from the burned floors:
"For example, valuable information could come from analysis of the blackened steel from the floors engulfed in flame after the airplane collisions. Steel flanges had been reduced from an inch thick to paper thin, Astaneh said."
that steel was observed between sept 19-29th. do you think they were digging at the bottom of the debris pile?

you asked me to source my own material I'd like to know where this is from. I'm not familiar with such a time frame ever being claimed.

read the article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/science/scarred-steel-holds-clues-and-remedies.html

Save your sarcasm for someone else. I'm merely stating that the NIST chose samples that they could positively identify. Surely you would agree that taking unknown samples in an investigation which relies on a positive ID is not sound. Why then do you insist they do it anyway?

so i guess that flanges that had been "reduced from an inch thick to paper thin" in so short amout of time is no interest to ya if its not stamped. the steel around these flanges might have been identifed to give a good guess as to where they were in the tower.

It's an educated inference. He says he saw melting and distortion like the Dali paintings yet he doesn't scream and moan about thermite despite how "compelling" it is to you. I can think of one other phenomenon he would referencing to; the sagging and twisting of steel much like what we saw when that Universal Studios facility burned to the ground. It's pretty common with these kinds of fires.

i think you forgot to add what Ataneh-asl's expert opinion was concerning that steel, He adds, “That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot—perhaps around 2,000 degrees.”

and where is that steel sample at NIST???? from what alienentity wrote:
"no evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600 °C for any significant time."

Here's an example of your Salvador Dali melting explained by creep failure from WTC 5: http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/fig-4-22.jpg

did those pieces get "yellow hot or white hot - perhap around 2,000 degrees"?

Why should I care? He's discussing this with people who may not be familiar with the terminology. Microsoft Encarta used the word "melted" up until their last release in 2009 to describe how the steel failed because of fires. I'm not a career professional but I'm not a laymen at this either, I don't need it to be this simplified.

then you can understand what he is saying here then:

ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Here, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center

 

[TexasJack]

Good, where's the link or reference that backs your statement. Sorry to be so distrustful, but after what I've read here, particularly TruthersLie, I am not really taking anybody's word for it just so fast.

This has already been linked to you before.
http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/exhibits/longterm/documents/recovery.pdf

 

[carlitos]

The link your post contains is broken

http://disaster.pandj.com/World Trade Center Forensic Recovery.pdf

and the site is under construction.

It is sad that the internet 'moves on' after a while. There are a set of links at the top of this section that would do you a lot of good. Look at the top - permanent links to resources, most of which are still live.

In 20 years, it will be just like the JFK thing, with 9/11 'truth' people pointing to bad links as evidence of the conspiracy itself. That won't change any of the facts, however.

 

[Miragememories]

"12,000 miles of electrical cable was sorted out of the debris.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6184618#post6184618"

Well, just like most of the concrete survived...as dust, of course I expected
copper wire to remain in some mutilated form.

The question was more geared to how recognizable, would the remnants of any unused and relatively fragile det cord be, after those collapses.

"No debris from either thermite slag or man-made demolition was found."

I missed the part where they said they were even looking, let alone know it if they saw it?

MM

 

[carlitos]

100% of the workers performing the 3rd sift-through the rubble were forensic investigators that were trained to recognize this. It was pointed out to you above. Yes, you missed it.

 

[BigAl]

The link your post contains is broken

http://disaster.pandj.com/World Trade Center Forensic Recovery.pdf

and the site is under construction.

Thanks for catching that. Here's the full article. IT makes your silly claims even sillier.

http://911depository.info/PDFs/Othe...nc - World Trade Center Forensic Recovery.pdf

 

[Miragememories]

100% of the workers performing the 3rd sift-through the rubble were forensic investigators that were trained to recognize this. It was pointed out to you above. Yes, you missed it.

Forensic does not mean they were trained to recognize everything!

It just denotes the application of scientific methods and techniques.

My understanding is that their primary concern was locating body parts.

MM

 

[BigAl]

Well, just like most of the concrete survived...as dust, of course I expected
copper wire to remain in some mutilated form.

The question was more geared to how recognizable, would the remnants of any unused and relatively fragile det cord be, after those collapses.




I missed the part where they said they were even looking, let alone know it if they saw it?

MM

What part of "forensic" do you not understand?

http://911depository.info/PDFs/Othe...nc - World Trade Center Forensic Recovery.pdf