Debunk Alert: Experiment to Test for Eutectic Reaction

[Andy_Ross]

Not just Firemen, ask any Foundryman.

 

[Christopher7]

.
So, do you realize this means that a eutectic combination has a lower melting point than any of its components?

Meaning no extraordinary temperatures needed.
.

You are comparing beams and microspheres.

The melted beam from WTC 7 was attacked by thermate slag which lowered the melting point.

The iron spheres did not have an elevated amount of sulfur so the melting point was 2800^oF.

 

[BigAl]

You are comparing beams and microspheres.

The melted beam from WTC 7 was attacked by thermate slag which lowered the melting point.

There WAS no slag of any sort recovered in the WTC debris pile. There is no evidence that there ever was any slag.

 

[Christopher7]

Dave, you know that oxygen starved fires don't burn as hot as well ventilated fires . . . don't you?

You are wrong. Combustion temperature is a equilibrium between heat generated and heat lost by conduction, radiation and convection.

1) Your name isn't Dave

2) Oxygen starved fires don't burn as hot as well ventilated fires.

 

[BigAl]

1) Your name isn't Dave

2) Oxygen starved fires don't burn as hot as well ventilated fires.

You are wrong. Combustion temperature is a equilibrium between heat generated and heat lost by conduction, radiation and convection.

A "well ventilated" fire loses lots of heat via convection, if nothing else.

A fire that is oxygen-limited may be very hot if it is well insulated and losing little heat to conduction, radiation and convection.

If you think I'm wrong, ask any fireman.

 

[MikeW]

Arup on fire temperature and ventilation (my emphasis):

Traditionally the fire resistance of structural members has been determined in Standard Fire Tests. The time-temperature environment in the Standard Fire Test represents a more severe heating condition compared to that in many typical natural fire compartments. In a well-ventilated compartment the duration and/or the severity of the time-temperature environment is generally less than in a Standard Fire Test. The effect of ventilation and fire load on fire severity is illustrated in Figure 2. Fire tests were conducted in compartments where the fire load and the natural ventilation were varied. The well ventilated compartments experienced lower temperatures and fires of shorter duration. In Figure 2 the numbers identified with each curve indicate the fire load density in kg/m2 (ie 60, 30 or 15) and the ventilation area as a proportion of the façade area (ie ½ or ¼).

The compartments used in the tests were small by modern standards but the results are indicative of the influence of fire load and ventilation on the time-temperature environment generated within fire compartments.

[hotlinked from my own site]
http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pr...trucfire/CaseStudy/steelComposite/default.htm

 

[Christopher7]

There WAS no slag of any sort recovered in the WTC debris pile. There is no evidence that there ever was any slag.

Excuse me, "[FONT=&quot]A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot sulfur attack on the steel.[/FONT]"

You can tap dance around it all you like but at the end of the day there is no explanation for this other than thermate.

There is NO scientific evidence that sulfur from any other source can do what was done to the beam from WTC 7.

 

[Dave Rogers]

A good example of a eutectic is tin/lead solder. The lowest possible melting point of any alloy combination of tin and lead occurs with approximately 62% tin and 38% lead. That temperature is 361 degrees F (183 degrees C). If the percentage, by weight, of either the tin or lead is changed in either direction the melting temperature is greater than 361 degrees F. Individually both lead and tin have higher melting temperatures than 361 degrees F, with pure tin melting at about 450 degrees F (232 degrees C) and pure lead at 621 degrees F (327.5 degrees C).
T_Szamboti on Sat Jul 17, 2010 http://the911forum.freeforums.org/s...-i-beam-doesn-t-support-nist-t391.html#p11697

I didn't say "Christopher7 can't cut and paste from somebody else's post about eutectics even though he doesn't actually understand a word about it", though; I said that you don't understand the word. At the moment, your claim is akin to saying that a soldering iron that only gets to 400ºF can't melt lead/tin solder because lead melts at 621ºF.

Dave

 

[sheeplesnshills]

The melted beam from WTC 7 was attacked by thermate slag which lowered the melting point.

please show your evidence for that.....as opposed to the evidence for ninja monkeys pouring sulfur all over the building before it collapsed or the evidence that an alien beamed down a ton of sulfur............or.....or.....

The iron spheres did not have an elevated amount of sulfur so the melting point was 2800^oF.

[/QUOTE]

Please show your evidence that these spheres were created in initiating the collapse and were not present before or created during the collapse.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Dave, you know that oxygen starved fires don't burn as hot as well ventilated fires . . . don't you?

Please cite your source for this 'knowledge'. Then you can, maybe, determine how much cooler an oxygen starved fire is, and what the effect of insulation is on its temperature. Anything less is just your usual ignorant handwaving.

Dave

 

[Andy_Ross]

how much sulphur came from the Thermate?
do you know what percentage of Thermate is Sulphur?
How much Thermate would be needed to produce the sulphur needed?

 

[Christopher7]

Arup on fire temperature and ventilation (my emphasis):

Excellent find.

There is an important difference though.

This test is a compartment fire, not a debris pile fire.

The ventilation area as a proportion of the façade area (ie ½ or ¼).

Fires in a debris pile will not have near as much oxygen to work with.

You are comparing oranges and apples.

 

[Christopher7]

I didn't say "Christopher7 can't cut and paste from somebody else's post about eutectics even though he doesn't actually understand a word about it", though; I said that you don't understand the word. At the moment, your claim is akin to saying that a soldering iron that only gets to 400ºF can't melt lead/tin solder because lead melts at 621ºF.

Dave

Some people are never satisfied.

Have a nice day Dave.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Excuse me, "[FONT=&quot]A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot sulfur attack on the steel.[/FONT]"

You can tap dance around it all you like but at the end of the day there is no explanation for this other than thermate.

There is NO scientific evidence that sulfur from any other source can do what was done to the beam from WTC 7.

Please show us that Thermate can do what you say it can. And please show us that sulfur delivered by ninja monkeys would not do exactly the same.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Some people are never satisfied.

You admit that office fires can reach temperatures around 1000ºC.

You say you understand what 'eutectic' means.

You say that eutectic melting of steel occurred.

You identify the eutectic as a sulphur-steel oxide with a melting point below 1000ºC.

You continue to insist that this required temperatures in excess of those available from an office fire, because steel melts at over 1500ºC.

You are unable to discern the contradiction here.

What, exactly, is there to be satisfied with?

Dave

 

[Andy_Ross]

I have had enough here. Christopher7 is either a troll or deranged.
He is making no attempt to understand what is posted or to do his own research into the idea he puts forward. He keeps parroting the same stuff with no understanding. He doesn't seem to know what Thermite is, how it works, what its characteristics are or even make a guess as to how it was used and how much of it was needed to do what he claims.

 

[Christopher7]

Please cite your source for this 'knowledge'. Then you can, maybe, determine how much cooler an oxygen starved fire is, and what the effect of insulation is on its temperature. Anything less is just your usual ignorant handwaving.

Dave

You acknowledge that oxygen starved fires will not burn as hot as a well ventilated fire. Unfortunately, there are no examples of skyscraper debris pile fires because this has never happened before or since.

Insulation can only retain heat. It cannot increase the temperature above the temperature of the smoldering debris pile fire.

 

[T.A.M.]

I have had enough here. Christopher7 is either a troll or deranged.
He is making no attempt to understand what is posted or to do his own research into the idea he puts forward. He keeps parroting the same stuff with no understanding. He doesn't seem to know what Thermite is, how it works, what its characteristics are or even make a guess as to how it was used and how much of it was needed to do what he claims.

Bingo...hence he is back on my ignore list.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What research have you done into oxygen starved fires, insulation and heat retention?
What research have you done into exothermic reactions?

 

[Christopher7]

I have had enough here. Christopher7 is either a troll or deranged.
He is making no attempt to understand what is posted or to do his own research into the idea he puts forward. He keeps parroting the same stuff with no understanding. He doesn't seem to know what Thermite is, how it works, what its characteristics are or even make a guess as to how it was used and how much of it was needed to do what he claims.

I believe that is a violation of rule ?
It's just a mindless personal attack.
Attack the argument, not the arguer please.