Debate (not debase) a Truther

[George 152]

Here's a few.....but do not make the false inference that all were explicitly involved in the 9/11 attacks. Just as it would be false to infer that every person involved with the 9/11 recovery/clean up efforts was also involved in the attacks.....

DEU Ackermann, Josef Chairman of the Management Board and the Group Executive
Committee, Deutsche Bank AG

USA Alexander, Keith B. Director, National Security Agency

GRC Alogoskoufis, George Member of Parliament

USA Altman, Roger C. Chairman and CEO, Evercore Partners, Inc.

GRC Arapoglou, Takis Chairman and CEO, National Bank of Greece

TUR Babacan, Ali Minister of State and Deputy Prime Minister

GRC Bakoyannis, Dora Minister of Foreign Affairs

NOR Baksaas, Jon Fredrik President and CEO, Telenor Group

PRT Balsemão, Francisco Pinto Chairman and CEO, IMPRESA, S.G.P.S.; Former Prime
Minister

FRA Baverez, Nicolas Partner, Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP

ITA Bernabè, Franco CEO Telecom Italia SpA

SWE Bildt, Carl Minister of Foreign Affairs

SWE Björklund, Jan Minister for Education; Leader of the Lìberal Party

CHE Blocher, Christoph Former Swiss Counselor; Former Chairman and CEO, EMS Group

FRA Bompard, Alexandre CEO, Europe 1

USA Boot, Max Jeane J. Kirkpatrick Senior Fellow for National Security Studies, Council
on Foreign Relations

AUT Bronner, Oscar Publisher and Editor, Der Standard

FRA Castries, Henri de Chairman of the Management Board and CEO, AXA

ESP Cebrián, Juan Luis CEO, Grupo PRISA

BEL Coene, Luc Vice Governor, National Bank of Belgium

USA Collins, Timothy C. Senior Managing Director and CEO, Ripplewood Holdings, LLC

GRC David, George A. Chairman, Coca-Cola Hellenic Bottling Co. (H.B.C.) S.A.

GRC Diamantopoulou, Anna Member of Parliament

ITA Draghi, Mario Governor, Banca d'Italia

USA Eberstadt, Nicholas N. Henry Wendt Scholar in Political Economy, American
Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research

DNK Eldrup, Anders President, DONG Energy A/S

ITA Elkann, John Chairman, EXOR S.p.A.; Vice Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.

DEU Enders, Thomas CEO, Airbus SAS

ESP Entrecanales, José Manuel Chairman, Acciona

AUT Faymann, Werner Federal Chancellor

USA Ferguson, Niall Laurence A. Tisch Professor of History, Harvard University

IRL Gleeson, Dermot Chairman, AIB Group

USA Graham, Donald E. Chairman and CEO, The Washington Post Company

NLD Halberstadt, Victor Professor of Economics, Leiden University; Former
Honorary Secretary General of Bilderberg Meetings

NLD Hirsch Ballin, Ernst M.H. Minister of Justice

USA Holbrooke, Richard C. US Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan

NLD Hommen, Jan H.M. Chairman, ING N.V.

INT Hoop Scheffer, Jaap G. de Secretary General, NATO

USA Johnson, James A. Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC

USA Jordan, Jr., Vernon E. Senior Managing Director, Lazard Frères & Co. LLC

FIN Katainen, Jyrki Minister of Finance

USA Keane, John M. Senior Partner, SCP Partners; General, US Army, Retired

USA Kent, Muhtar President and CEO, The Coca-Cola Company

GBR Kerr, John Member, House of Lords; Deputy Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc

DEU Klaeden, Eckart von Foreign Policy Spokesman, CDU/CSU

USA Kleinfeld, Klaus President and CEO, Alcoa Inc.

TUR Koç, Mustafa V. Chairman, Koç Holding A.S.

DEU Koch, Roland Prime Minister of Hessen

TUR Kohen, Sami Senior Foreign Affairs Columnist, Milliyet

USA Kravis, Henry R. Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, Inc.

INT Kroes, Neelie Commissioner, European Commission

GRC Kyriacopoulos, Ulysses Chairman and Board member of subsidiary companies
of the S&B Group

FRA Lagarde, Christine Minister for the Economy, Industry and Employment

INT Lamy, Pascal Director General, World Trade Organization

PRT Leite, Manuela Ferreira Leader, PSD

ESP León Gross, Bernardino General Director of the Presidency of the Spanish
Government

DEU Löscher, Peter CEO, Siemens AG

GBR Mandelson, Peter Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise & Regulatory
Reform

INT Maystadt, Philippe President, European Investment Bank

CAN McKenna, Frank Former Ambassador to the US

GBR Micklethwait, John Editor-in-Chief, The Economist

FRA Montbrial, Thierry de President, French Institute for International Relations

ITA Monti, Mario President, Universita Commerciale Luigi Bocconi

ESP Moratinos Cuyaubé, Miguel A. Minister of Foreign Affairs

USA Mundie, Craig J. Chief Research and Strategy Officer, Microsoft Corporation

CAN Munroe-Blum, Heather Principal and Vice Chancellor, McGill University

NOR Myklebust, Egil Former Chairman of the Board of Directors SAS, Norsk Hydro ASA

DEU Nass, Matthias Deputy Editor, Die Zeit

NLD Beatrix, H.M. the Queen of the Netherlands

ESP Nin Génova, Juan Maria President and CEO, La Caixa

FRA Olivennes, Denis CEO and Editor in Chief, Le Nouvel Observateur

FIN Ollila, Jorma Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc

GBR Osborne, George Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer

FRA Oudéa, Frédéric CEO, Société Générale

ITA Padoa-Schioppa, Tommaso Former Minister of Finance; President of Notre Europe

GRC Papahelas, Alexis Journalist, Kathimerini

GRC Papalexopoulos, Dimitris Managing Director, Titan Cement Co. S.A.

GRC Papathanasiou, Yannis Minister of Economy and Finance

USA Perle, Richard N. Resident Fellow, American Enterprise Institute for Public
Policy Research

BEL Philippe, H.R.H. Prince

PRT Pinho, Manuel Minister of Economy and Innovation

INT Pisani-Ferry, Jean Director, Bruegel

CAN Prichard, J. Robert S. President and CEO, Metrolinx

ITA Prodi, Romano Chairman, Foundation for Worldwide Cooperation

FIN Rajalahti, Hanna Managing Editor, Talouselämä

CAN Reisman, Heather M. Chair and CEO, Indigo Books & Music Inc.

NOR Reiten, Eivind President and CEO, Norsk Hydro ASA

CHE Ringier, Michael Chairman, Ringier AG

USA Rockefeller, David Former Chairman, Chase Manhattan Bank

USA Rubin, Barnett R. Director of Studies and Senior Fellow, Center for
International Cooperation, New York University

TUR Sabanci Dinçer, Suzan Chairman, Akbank

CAN Samarasekera, Indira V. President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Alberta

AUT Scholten, Rudolf Member of the Board of Executive Directors, Oesterreichische
Kontrollbank AG

USA Sheeran, Josette Executive Director, UN World Food Programme

ITA Siniscalco, Domenico Vice Chairman, Morgan Stanley International

ESP Solbes, Pedro Vice-President of Spanish Government; Minister of Economy and
Finance

ESP Sophia, H.M. the Queen of Spain

USA Steinberg, James B. Deputy Secretary of State

INT Stigson, Bjorn President, World Business Council for Sustainable Development

GRC Stournaras, Yannis Research Director, Foundation for Economic and Industrial
Research (IOBE)

IRL Sutherland, Peter D. Chairman, BP plc and Chairman, Goldman Sachs International

INT Tanaka, Nobuo Executive Director, IEA

GBR Taylor, J. Martin Chairman, Syngenta International AG

USA Thiel, Peter A. President, Clarium Capital Management, LLC

DNK Thorning-Schmidt, Helle Leader ofThe Social Democratic Party

DNK Thune Andersen, Thomas Partner and CEO, Maersk Oil

AUT Treichl, Andreas Chairman and CEO, Erste Group Bank AG

INT Trichet, Jean-Claude President, European Central Bank

GRC Tsoukalis, Loukas President of the Hellenic Foundation for European and
Foreign Policy (ELlAMEP)

TUR Ugur, Agah CEO, Borusan Holding

FIN Vanhanen, Matti Prime Minister

CHE Vasella, Daniel L. Chairman and CEO, Novartis AG

NLD Veer, Jeroen van der Chief Executive, Royal Dutch Shell plc

USA Volcker, Paul A. Chairman, Economic Recovery Advisory Board

SWE Wallenberg, Jacob Chairman, Investor AB

SWE Wallenberg, Marcus Chairman, SEB

NLD Wellink, Nout President, De Nederlandsche Bank

NLD Wijers, Hans Chairman, AkzoNobel NV

GBR Wolf, Martin H. Associate Editor & Chief Economics Commentator, The Financial
Times

USA Wolfensohn, James D. Chairman, Wolfensohn & Company, LLC

USA Wolfowitz, Paul Visiting Scholar, American Enterprise Institute for Public
Policy Research

INT Zoellick, Robert B. President, The World Bank Group

GBR Bredow, Vendeline von Business Correspondent, The Economist (Rapporteur)

GBR McBride, Edward Business Editor, The Economist (Rapporteur)


• AUT Austria
• BEL Belgium
• CHE Switzerland
• CAN Canada
• DEU Germany
• DNK Denmark
• ESP Spain
• FRA France
• FIN Finland
• GBR Great Britain
• GRC Greece
• IRL Ireland
• INT International
• ITA Italy
• NOR Norway
• NLD Netherlands
• PRT Portugal
• SWE Sweden
• TUR Turkey
• USA United States of America

And none of those people/countries let their involvement slip ?
You have serious problems

 

[BadBoy]

You might enjoy this... http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113706

Follow-up: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115744

very cool, lying about lying hu.

Im from the UK and have never heard of the DJ before. What a jerk. If I did believe in God, which I dont, he'd be going to hell, along with Jerry Springer.

 

[ImANiceGuy]

No need to stop at terrorists or UBL. 911 truth has no rational understanding of the world. I mean, the "global elite". The air is unsafe to breathe? WTF is that?

If you don't know about the 9/11 EPA fruc up, you had better ask somebody!

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Getting a truther to admit they are wrong?!?!?

Getting a truther to understand physics/fire/structural engineering/english/kitten pictures?

too obvious of a jref response to be funny, imo.

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Hi, just been lurking on this thread.

Hay, ImANiceGuy,

Do you really believe it was an inside job? Hand on your nuts and on your hampsters deathbed do you honestly believe it was an inside job... come on now, you can type so you cant be all that... disadvantaged.

Listen to some advise my mate. Its like this you see. The truth is always more interesting than the woo. As Richard Dawkins pointed out, the theory of evolution is so much more interesting and wonderfull than the creationist mantra.

I would say that taking your time investigating US and Western European history and politics and the problems in the middle east would be far more interesting than hanging out on some truther forum pretending to be in some Tom Clancey novel.

Thank you for your unsolicited life-advice. I will take it into consideration...

 

[Dave Rogers]

If you don't know about the 9/11 EPA fruc up, you had better ask somebody!

The EPA announced that the air in lower Manhattan was safe to breathe, and there are no known cases of people suffering problems related to dust inhalation in the publically accessible areas of the city. Ground Zero was at that time a controlled access site, and all workers were required to wear breathing apparatus while on site. Several cases of respiratory problems are alleged to have arisen from workers, generally for quite understandable reasons, failing to comply with those regulations. The EPA ****-up is purely an invention of truthers, who conflate the public announcement with a fictitious lifting of the on-site regulation.

Dave

 

[ImANiceGuy]

And none of those people/countries let their involvement slip ?
You have serious problems

IMO, you have serious problems if you equate the word people to the word country. Unfortunately, I think you made the false inference I specifically warned repliers to avoid...

 

[ImANiceGuy]

cat bbg.txt | grep "FRA" :



1°) Was a lawyer in 2001.
2°) Was leading... a soccer team in 2001. Plus, "Europe 1" is a national radio station. Clearly out of scope.
3°) "AXA" is an insurance company. So, he helped to organize a huge crime in order to stress his OWN BUSINESS????
4°) So you're accusing one of our ministers of being part of one of the biggest murders in history? By the way, she was a famous lawyer in 2001.
5°) Unknown to public. Was the president of the French Academy of Moral and Political Sciences in 2001.
6°) "Le Nouvel Observateur" is a french magazine, you should know that. BTW, Denis Olivennes was leading a french TV channel in 2001, before leading a chain of high-tech stores. So what? 9/11 allowed him to sell some iPods and flat screens?
7°) The "Société Générale" is a bank. Frédéric Oudéa was just an employee of this bank in 2001. That means he didn't have any power of decision.

Good job for accusing innocent people!

Well I suppose there would be a big frigging difference between benefitting unknowingly from an event, and being involved in it's execution. How can you claim #5 innocent and he is unknown to the public (I didn't even bother to look up his name). I would want you on my jury...

Carlitos, BigAl...you guys want evidence, of what? I've stated my hypothesis, specifiy your questions within it and I would be happy to elaborate...

It's hardly fair for you to ask me to basically lay to rest this great debate, in one post.

 

[ImANiceGuy]

The EPA announced that the air in lower Manhattan was safe to breathe, and there are no known cases of people suffering problems related to dust inhalation in the publically accessible areas of the city. Ground Zero was at that time a controlled access site, and all workers were required to wear breathing apparatus while on site. Several cases of respiratory problems are alleged to have arisen from workers, generally for quite understandable reasons, failing to comply with those regulations. The EPA ****-up is purely an invention of truthers, who conflate the public announcement with a fictitious lifting of the on-site regulation.

Dave

Dave, to demonstrate that I am not unwilling to accept new information in light of old facts(as I may have perceived them), I will re-research this topic and respond. My tongue-in-cheek references to an EPA error were made tongue-in-cheek because I thought it was accepted fact. I could have been wrong.

 

[BigAl]

Carlitos, BigAl...you guys want evidence, of what? I've stated my hypothesis, specifiy your questions within it and I would be happy to elaborate...

A hypothesis is something that makes specific claims and is judged by how well it fits the available evidence, science, etc. Nothing you have posted is specific enough to rise to the level of being a hypothesis.

 

[Sabrina]

The EPA announced that the air in lower Manhattan was safe to breathe, and there are no known cases of people suffering problems related to dust inhalation in the publically accessible areas of the city. Ground Zero was at that time a controlled access site, and all workers were required to wear breathing apparatus while on site. Several cases of respiratory problems are alleged to have arisen from workers, generally for quite understandable reasons, failing to comply with those regulations. The EPA ****-up is purely an invention of truthers, who conflate the public announcement with a fictitious lifting of the on-site regulation.

Dave

IIRC, there are photos showing numerous Ground Zero workers with the masks they were supposed to wear hanging from their necks instead of being on their faces. That's probably not the case for all of them, but I'd say it's a safe bet that a vast majority of the folks who have respiratory problems as a result of working on Ground Zero were the ones in those photos with their masks hanging around their necks.

 

[kookbreaker]

IIRC, there are photos showing numerous Ground Zero workers with the masks they were supposed to wear hanging from their necks instead of being on their faces. That's probably not the case for all of them, but I'd say it's a safe bet that a vast majority of the folks who have respiratory problems as a result of working on Ground Zero were the ones in those photos with their masks hanging around their necks.

I've mentioned this before: A good friend of mine works in NYC for the EPA and was at ground zero for the clean-up. Since he had the big 'EPA' he was frequently asked by workers about how safe the air was. He would explain to them, while wearing his mask, all the various hazards present from the collapse: asbestos, phosphates from light bulbs & CRT's, and much more.

As he has said, invariably the worker asking would have his mask hanging around his neck, so he could smoke.

 

[Dave Rogers]

IIRC, there are photos showing numerous Ground Zero workers with the masks they were supposed to wear hanging from their necks instead of being on their faces. That's probably not the case for all of them, but I'd say it's a safe bet that a vast majority of the folks who have respiratory problems as a result of working on Ground Zero were the ones in those photos with their masks hanging around their necks.

It's standard health & safety procedure to use personal protective equipment as a last line of defense against hazards, rather than as a standard approach. The simple reason is that people just don't use it. There are many reasons, from finding that it interferes with the ability to do the job properly (probably a major consideration for people doing search-and-rescue) to familiarity-breeds-contempt and simple laziness, but it's well recognised that people simply can't be relied on to use protective equipment whatever the level of regulation and enforcement. Sadly, for people working at ground zero, there were no other options.

Dave

 

[ImANiceGuy]

The EPA announced that the air in lower Manhattan was safe to breathe, and there are no known cases of people suffering problems related to dust inhalation in the publically accessible areas of the city. Ground Zero was at that time a controlled access site, and all workers were required to wear breathing apparatus while on site. Several cases of respiratory problems are alleged to have arisen from workers, generally for quite understandable reasons, failing to comply with those regulations. The EPA ****-up is purely an invention of truthers, who conflate the public announcement with a fictitious lifting of the on-site regulation.

Dave

Nothing falsely conflated here...first paragraph in Wikipedia's EPA 9/11 air controversy entry;

The EPA 9/11 pollution controversy was the result of a report released by the Office of the Inspector General of the United States Environmental Protection Agency in August 2003 which claimed that the White House put pressure on the EPA to delete cautionary information about the air quality in New York City around Ground Zero following the September 11, 2001 attacks. According to the report: a September 18 EPA statement saying that the air was "safe"[1] was made without sufficient reliable data available; the White House Council on Environmental Quality influenced the EPA to make reassuring comments to the public; and on September 12 the EPA Administrator issued a memo saying that all statements to the media must be cleared by the National Security Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...cy_September_11_attacks_pollution_controversy

Here's a link to the OIG report and an excerpt.

http://www.epa.gov/oig/reports/2003/WTC_report_20030821.pdf

The White House Council on Environmental Quality (CEQ) influenced, through the collaboration process, the information that EPA communicated to the public through its early press releases when it convinced EPA to add reassuring statements and delete cautionary ones (P.17)

This is a separate issue from rescue workers not complying with PPE protocols later becomming sick.

This article summarizes the whole story best;

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0823-03.htm

NEW YORK -- In the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attack on the World Trade Center, the White House instructed the Environmental Protection Agency to give the public misleading information, telling New Yorkers it was safe to breathe when reliable information on air quality was not available.

However, I can appreciate the statement offered in the final sentence of said article by then acting EPA director Marianne Horinko;

"Under unbelievably trying conditions, EPA did the best that it could," she said.

If I could finish her quote for her : "...under intense pressure from the Whitehouse to keep the public calm and return business to usual."



Dave....what say you?

 

[ImANiceGuy]

A hypothesis is something that makes specific claims and is judged by how well it fits the available evidence, science, etc. Nothing you have posted is specific enough to rise to the level of being a hypothesis.

Well a conspiracy as grand as 9/11 requires a detailed and complex hypothesis; trying to explain it in brevity is near impossible.

If you'd like you can ask me specific questions regarding my 'vague hypothesis', and it will unravel and become clear with the respect for accuracy it deserves.

How about something easy, like did 19 terrorists highjack 4 planes and crash them into buildings/field; 2 in NY, 1 in DC, and one in Pennsylvania. My answer is yes, yes they did.

I can tell you what I don't hypothesize; tv trickery, no-planes, missile at the Pentagon, north-of-citgo.

The existence of a global elite is not news to anyone right? They exist, same as the silent majority exists....its been extensively studied in sociology. My theory is that only the highest ranking members, intent on geo-political engineering, were aware of all aspects of the conspiracy.

Bush Sr., Kissinger, Rice, HW, Cheney, Blair, Rockefeller are a few examples. These people, and many more, manipulated all the right people below them in order to MIHOP.

 

[Sabrina]

How EXACTLY did the people you listed Make It Happen On Purpose? And do you have any evidence for claiming such? Or is it mere speculation and you have no concrete evidence?

Same question applies for the "global elite"; got any concrete evidence that they exist? Who exactly are they? Is there a listing somewhere that details why these people are "elite" over the rest of humanity? Can you provide evidence that they manipulate any of the world's governments in any way? And again, please refrain from mere speculation; provide citations, provide concrete EVIDENCE of any of these people existing and actually doing what you are claiming they do. Otherwise, your opinion means exactly this. *snaps fingers*

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Sure! I'm hoping for a bit of downtime this evening; I'll get back to you asap...

 

[Bell]

Sure! I'm hoping for a bit of downtime this evening; I'll get back to you asap...

You have evidence? REAL evidence? Real real evidence that definitely proves 9/11 was really an inside job? That's great! Don't forget to post it also in this thread. I'm hoping you are also taking your evidence to the supreme court

 

[ImANiceGuy]

How EXACTLY did the people you listed Make It Happen On Purpose? And do you have any evidence for claiming such? Or is it mere speculation and you have no concrete evidence?

Sabrina, if you're expecting some miracle evidence to present itself, don't hold your breath, just go away from this thread.

Better yet, take a deep breath and try to remain objective in light of your overwhelming emotion...

Same question applies for the "global elite"; got any concrete evidence that they exist? Who exactly are they? Is there a listing somewhere that details why these people are "elite" over the rest of humanity? Can you provide evidence that they manipulate any of the world's governments in any way? And again, please refrain from mere speculation; provide citations, provide concrete EVIDENCE of any of these people existing and actually doing what you are claiming they do. Otherwise, your opinion means exactly this. *snaps fingers*

Paraphrasing the entire Elitist sociological tradition, those who qualify (although each social scientist would have their own specific criteria) as global elites are, simply put, the highest of the economic elites who hold power and influence outside their specific economic forums. These individuals are able to influence public policy in many ways; and it's been extensively studied by many sociologists; think....how could someone with tremendous economic power bypass democratically defined spheres of influence? Now start thinking about all the summits and forums going on behind closed doors all over the world. Where did the term 'backroom deal' come from?

If you wanted to independently learn more about Elite Theory. I would start by studying the original works of CW Mills, John Porter's Verticle Mosaic, then Wallace Clement's excellent book, The Canadian Corporate Elite. (bit of a Canadian influence to this research lineup.....)

Anyway, certain individuals around the world qualify as Global Elites, rather than just elites, due to the rise in MNC's and the rapid pace of globalization. To deny this is just plain silly. Now if you have a specific question in regards to my definition of this group....pose away.

 

[Sabrina]

Sabrina, if you're expecting some miracle evidence to present itself, don't hold your breath, just go away from this thread.

Better yet, take a deep breath and try to remain objective in light of your overwhelming emotion...



Paraphrasing the entire Elitist sociological tradition, those who qualify (although each social scientist would have their own specific criteria) as global elites are, simply put, the highest of the economic elites who hold power and influence outside their specific economic forums. These individuals are able to influence public policy in many ways; and it's been extensively studied by many sociologists; think....how could someone with tremendous economic power bypass democratically defined spheres of influence? Now start thinking about all the summits and forums going on behind closed doors all over the world. Where did the term 'backroom deal' come from?

If you wanted to independently learn more about Elite Theory. I would start by studying the original works of CW Mills, John Porter's Verticle Mosaic, then Wallace Clement's excellent book, The Canadian Corporate Elite. (bit of a Canadian influence to this research lineup.....)

Anyway, certain individuals around the world qualify as Global Elites, rather than just elites, due to the rise in MNC's and the rapid pace of globalization. To deny this is just plain silly. Now if you have a specific question in regards to my definition of this group....pose away.

Name names. Otherwise it's mere speculation with no hard evidence. That is not how we work here. And if you name those names, you'd better be prepared to back up your accusations against them with even more evidence.

Are certain people more powerful than others because they are wealthy? Certainly. But that doesn't mean the so-called "global elite" exist in the sense that you are intimating.