Debate (not debase) a Truther

[Edx]

That would be your super nano thermite, code named hushaboom. Rocky and Bullwinkle were both members of Skull and Bones and they were working with technology recovered from Area 51.

ETA : Just after posting, my trash was picked up by two guys in a black SUV. Should I be worried?

No No, see its worse than that.

First they propose something that defies how sound works. ie. that an explosive can be intense enough to hurl steel around yet be quiet. This would be the "hushabom"

Second, they literally try and claim that the explosives were quiet because of the thermite yet also argue loud explosions were going off all over the place. So quite literally, they argue that the explosives were both loud and quiet at the same time! LOL

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Just a question:

What were the actual recorded decibel levels during the collapses?

Anyone with a NIST volume/section/chapter/sub-chapter link?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Just a question:

What were the actual recorded decibel levels during the collapses?

Anyone with a NIST volume/section/chapter/sub-chapter link?

I haven't seen any record of the sound levels recorded during the collapse. What you probably want to know, though, is the sound levels just before the collapse. However, it's a bit tricky to define what that means. In effect, you want to know how loud a bang was heard just before the collapse began, and the answer is that nobody heard any bang just before the collapse began.

Really, though, NIST's argument is very simple; explosives would have made such a loud bang that it would have been unmistakeable on any sound recording or from any nearby witness account. In fact, it would have been loud enough to cause temporary hearing loss within about a half-mile radius. By analogy, it's been pointed out that there wasn't an elephant in the room, and your question asks whether anyone saw a mouse.

Dave

 

[Oystein]

Just a question:

What were the actual recorded decibel levels during the collapses?

Anyone with a NIST volume/section/chapter/sub-chapter link?

It is completely irrelevant what the decibel levels were during the collapse. If you want to bring down a building with explosives, then during the collapse would be after the explosions. All that's interesting is what we heard or didn't hear immediately before the collapse. And the simple truth of the matter is: There wasn't any relevant sound to be measured, when the minimum explosive charge required to sever one (only one) column would produce more than 130dB (ear shattering) about a kilometer away - regardless of what you use: PETN, TNT, dynamite, black powder, nukes, nanothermite... (list in descending order of likelihood)

You have probably seen the video where some TV lady is interviewing someone on the street only a few blocks away when they notice the rising noise and dust from WTC7 in the background - what is most notably absent in that video is the slightest "bang" just before that collapse. There is no need to include the decibel-level of a non-event in any investigation report. Non-events produce no decibel levels.

 

[Oystein]

...nobody heard any bang just before the collapse began...

In all honesty, that is not quite true, depending on what you mean by "just before" and "bang". Some people recorded some "booms" at some point time before they noticed the building was in fact collapsing. You would even expect that, knowing that internal collapse was well under way before the facade started going down, so you would have heard beams and bolts snapping before you saw anything.

But those booms certainly many many orders of magnitude softer than the BANG from 9 pounds of TNT-equivalent necessary to cut just one column, as they are not heard on any of the videos, and have not been reported by tens of thousands of New Yorkers who were within a couple of miles of WTC7

 

[1337m4n]

Why is so much of this thread being spent discussing proper French grammar?

Hey Truthers, did you miss this one:

Question: What is the relevance of WTC7's collapse being "unprecedented"? What does precedent have to do with the question of how it happened?

 

[Sabrina]

Yes I believe there was a grand conspiracy on 9/11, you can put the hidden-motive speculations aside.

Just a quick note; you are familiar with the saying "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead", are you not? Are you aware of the number of people who would have to have been aware of at least part of the conspiracy in order for it to be carried out? No? Well, here's a partial (note the emphasis) list for you:

1,500 people who worked the flight 93 crash scene
40,000 people who worked the piles at Ground Zero
55 FBI Evidence Response Teams at Fresh Kills in New York
7,000+ FBI Agents
8,000+ people who worked the scene at the Pentagon
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E. / Aine M. Brazil, P.E., S.E. / Alan Rosa, P.E., S.E. / Alfred D. Barcenilla, Sr., P.E. / Allan Jowsey, Ph.D. / Allyn Kilsheimer, P.E., S.E. / Amit Bandyopadhyay, S.E. / Amy Zelson Mundorff / Anamaria Bonilla, S.E. / Andre Sidler, P.E., S.E. / Andrei Reinhorn, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Andrew Coats, P.E., S.E. / Andrew McConnell, S.E. / Andrew Mueller-Lust, S.E. / Andrew Pontecorvo, P.E. / Andrew Whittaker, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Anthony Kirk US&R Structural Specialist / Anthony W. Chuliver, S.E. / Antoine E. Naaman, Ph.D. / Antranig M. Ouzoonian, P.E. / Arlan Dobson, FEMA Region 2 DAS / Arthur Schuerman, FDNY (ret.) / Asif Usmani, Ph.D., B.E. / August Domel, Ph.D., S.E., P.E. / Ayhan Irfanoglu, P.E., S.E. / Barbara Lane, Ph.D. / Bernie Denke, P.E. US&R Structural Specialist / Bill Cote / Bill Coulbourne, P.E., S.E. / Bill Crowley, special agent, FBI / Bill Daly, senior vice president, Control Risks Group / Bill Scott (Capt. USAF, Ret.), / Bill Uher, NASA Langley Research Center / Bob Gray (I.U.O.E.) / Bonnie Manley, P.E., S.E. / Boris Hayda, P.E., S.E. / Brian Lyons, Tully / Brian McElhatten, S.E. / Brian Smith (Col.), Chief Deputy Medical Examiner, Dover AFB / Brian Tokarczik, P.E., S.E. / Charles Hirsch, M.D. / Charles J. Carter, P.E., S.E. / Charles Thornton, P.E. / Charlie Vitchers / Christoph Hoffmann, Ph.D., Purdue University / Christopher E. Marrion, P.E. / Christopher M. Hewitt, AISC / Christopher N. McCowan / Chuck Guardia, S.E. / Conrad Paulson, P.E., S.E. / Curtis S.D. Massey / D. Stanton Korista, P.E., S.E. / Dan Doyle (IW 40) / Dan Eschenasy, P.E., S.E. / Dan Koch Jr. / Daniel A. Cuoco, P.E / Daniele Veneziano, P.E. / David Biggs, P.E., S.E. / David Cooper, P.E. / David Davidowitz, ConEd / David Hoy, S.E. / David J. Hammond, P.E., S.E. / David Leach, P.E. / David M. Parks, ME / David Newland Sc.D., FREng. / David Peraza, P.E., S.E. / David Ranlet / David Schomburg / David Sharp, S.E. / David T. Biggs, P.E. / Dean Koutsoubis, S.E. / Dean Tills, P.E. / Delbert Boring, P.E. / Dennis Clark (IST) / Dennis Dirkmaat, Ph.D. / Dennis Mileti, Ph.D. / Dennis Smith / Dharam Pal, M.E. / Dick Posthauer, S.E. / Donald Friedman, P.E. / Donald O. Dusenberry, P.E. / Ed Jacoby Jr., NYSEMO / Ed McGinley, P.E. / Ed Plaugher, Chief, Arlington FD / Edward A. Flynn, Arlington Police Chief / Edward M. DePaola, P.E., S.E. / Edward Stinnette, Chief, FCFD / Eiji Fukuzawa / Fahim Sadek, P.E., S.E. / Farid Alfawakhiri, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Frank Vallebuono, FDNY Battalion Chief / Anthony Varriale, FDNY Captain / Frank Cruthers, FDNY Chief / Frank Fellini, FDNY Chief / Joseph Callan, FDNY Chief / Daniel Nigro, FDNY Chief of Operations / Nick Visconti, FDNY Deputy Chief / Peter Hayden, FDNY Deputy Chief / Sam Melisi, FDNY Firefighter / Forman Williams, Ph.D., P.E. / Francis J. Lombardi, P.E. / Frank Gayle, Sc.D. / Frank Greening, Ph.D. / Fred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B. / Fred Endrikat, FEMA USAR / Gary Keith, V.P. NFPA / Gary Steficek, S.E. / Gary Tokle, Asst. VP, NFPA / George Tamaro, P.E., S.E. / Gerald Haynes, P.E. / Gerald Wellman US&R Structural Specialist / Glenn Corbett / Graeme Flint / Guy Colonna, P.E., NFPA / Guylene Proulx, Ph.D. / H.S. Lew, P.E., S.E. / Hal Bidlack, Lt. Col. USAF (ret.), Ph.D. / Harold E. Nelson, P.E., FSFP.E. / Harry Martin, AISC / Howard R. Baum, Ph.D., M.E. / J. David Frost, Ph.D., P.E. / J. David McColskey / Jack Brown Deputy Chief Loudoun County (Va.) Fire Rescue Department / Jack Messagno, WTC project Manager (Tully) / Jack Spencer, P.E. / Jacques Grandino, P.E., S.E. / James A. Rossberg, P.E. / James Chastain US&R Structural Specialist / James H. Fahey, S.E. / James J. Cohen, P.E., S.E. / James J. Hauck, P.E., S.E. / James Lord, FSFP.E. / James Milke, Ph.D., P.E. / James Quintiere, Ph.D., P.E. / Jan Szumanski, IUOE / Jason Averill, FSFP.E. / Jeff Rienbold, NPS / Jeffrey Hartman, S.E. / Jim Abadie, Bovis / Joel Meyerowitz / John Fisher, Ph.D., P.E., / John Flynn, P.E. / John Gross, Ph.D., P.E. / John Hodgens, FDNY (ret.) / John J. Healey, Ph.D., P.E. / John J. Zils, P.E., S.E. / John L. Gross, Ph.D., P.E. / John Lekstutis, P.E. / John M. Hanson, Ph.D, P.E. / John McArdle NYPD/ESU (DTC) / John Moran, NYPD/ESU (NTC) / John O'Connell, Chief FDNY / John Odermatt (NYC OEM) / John Ruddy, P.E., S.E. / John Ryan, PAPD / John W. Fisher, P.E. / Jon Magnusson, P.E., S.E. / Jonathan Barnett, Ph.D / Joo-Eun Lee P.E., S.E. / José Torero, Ph.D. / Joseph C. Gehlen, P.E., S.E. / Joseph Englot, P.E., S.E. / Jozef Van Dyck, P.E. / Juan Paulo Morla, S.E. / Karen Damianick, P.E. / Karl Koch III / Karl Koch IV / Kaspar Willam, P.E., S.E. / Keith A. Seffen, MA, Ph.D. / Ken Hays / Kenneth Holden / Kent Watts / Kevin Brennan, OSHA / Kevin Malley, FDNY (ret.) / Kevin Terry, S.E. / Kurt Gustafson, P.E., S.E. / Larry Keating (IW 40) / Lawrence C. Bank, Ph.D., P.E. / Lawrence Griffis, P.E. / Lawrence Novak, P.E., S.E. / Leo J. Titus, P.E. / Leonard M. Joseph, P.E. / Leslie E. Robertson, P.E., S.E. / Long T. Phan, Ph.D., P.E. / Lou Mendes, P.E., S.E. / Louis Errichiello, S.E. / Manny Velivasakis, P.E. / Mark Blair / Mark Kucera, USACE / Mark Pierepiekarz, P.E., S.E. / Mark Stahl / Mark Tamaro, P.E / Mark Volpe, IW 40 / Marty Corcoran / Matthew G. Yerkey, P.E., S.E. / Matthew McCormick, NTSB / Melbourne Garber, P.E., S.E. / Merle E. Brander, P.E. / Mete A. Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. / Michael Burton, P.E. / Michael Dallal / Michael Fagel, Ph.D., CEM / Michael Hessheimer, S.E. / Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D., ATP, CFI / Michael Tylk, P.E., S.E. / Michel Bruneau, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Mike Banker, FDNY Capt. (SOC) / Mike Marscio, P.E. / Miroslav Sulc,, P.E., S.E. / Mohammed Ettouney / Mohammed R. Karim, Ph.D. / Morgan Hurley, FSFP.E. / Nestor Iwankiw, Ph.D., P.E. / Nick Carcich / Norman Groner, Ph.D. / Pablo Lopez, P.E., S.E. / Patrick McNierney, P.E., S.E. / Paul A. Bosela, Ph.D., P.E. / Paul F. Mlakar, Ph.D., P.E. / Paul Sledzik / Paul Tertell, P.E. / Pete Bakersky / Peter Chipchase, S.E. / Peter Rinaldi, P.E. / Phillip Murray, P.E. / Pia Hoffman / Rajani Nair, S.E. / Ralph Castillo, P.E., F.P.E. / Ralph D'Apuzo, P.E. / Ramon Gilsanz, P.E., S.E / Randy Lawson / Raul Maestre, P.E., S.E. / Raymond F. Messer, P.E. / Raymond H.R. Tide, P.E., S.E. / Reidar Bjorhovde, Ph.D., P.E / Richard Bukowski P.E., FSFP.E. / Richard G. Gewain, P.E., S.E. / Richard Gann, Ph.D. / Richard Garlock, P.E., S.E. / Richard J. Fields, Ph.D. / Richard Kahler US&R Structural Specialist / Robert Athanas (thermal imaging specialist, FDNY) / Robert C. Sinn, P.E., S.E. / Robert Clarke, S.E. / Robert F. Duval (NFPA) / Robert Frances US&R Structural Specialist / Robert J. McNamara, P.E., S.E. / Robert L. Parker, Ph.D. / Robert Ratay, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / Robert Shaler, M.D. / Robert Smilowitz, Ph.D., P.E / Robert Solomon, P.E. / Robert Wills, AISC / Ron Dokell, president, Demolition Consultants / Ronald Greeley, Ph.D. / Ronald Hamburger, P.E., S.E. / Ronald J. LaMere, P.E. / Ronald Rehm, Ph.D. / Ronald Spadafora, FDNY D.A.C / Ruben M. Zallen, P.E. / Russell "Rusty" Dodge Jr, Asst. Chief, Fort Belvoir FD / Ryan Mackey / S. Shyam Sunder, P.E., S.E. / Saroj Bhol, P.E. / Saw-Teen See, P.E. / Shankar Nair. P.E., S.E. / Shawn Kelly, Arlington County Fire Marshal / Skip Aldous, Lt. Col., U.S. Air Force (Ret.) / Socrates Ioannides, P.E., S.E. / Sonny Scarff / Stan Murphy, P.E. / Stephen Cauffman / Stephen W. Banovic, Ph.D. / Steve Douglass, image analysis consultant / Steve Rasweiler, FDNY B.C. (SOC) / Steve Spall, P.E., S.E. / Stuart Foltz, P.E. / Terry Sullivan, Bovis / Theodore Galambos, P.E. / Theodore Krauthammer, Ph.D., P.E. / Therese P. McAllister, Ph.D., P.E. / Thomas A. Siewert / Thomas Eagar, Sc.D., P.E. / Thomas Hawkins Jr, Chief, AFD / Thomas R. Edwards, Ph.D / Thomas Schlafly, AISC / Timothy Foecke, Ph.D. / Todd Curtis, Ph.D / Todd Ude, P.E., S.E. / Tom Scarangello, P.E. / Tom Stanton (IST) / Tomasz Wierzbicki / Tony Beale, P.E. / Valentine Junker / Van Romero, Ph.D. / Venkatesh Kodur, Ph.D., P.E. / Victor Hare, P.E. / Victoria Arbitrio, P.E. / Vincent Dunn, FDNY (ret.) / W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. / W. Lee Evey / Wallace Miller / William Baker, P.E., S.E / William E. Luecke, Ph.D. / William Grosshandler, Ph.D., ME / William Howell, P.E., S.E. / William Koplitz photo desk manager, FEMA / William McGuire, P.E. / Willie Quinlan, IW / Won-Young Kim, Ph.D / Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp. / Yukihiro Omika / Zdenek Bazant, Ph.D., S.E. /
ACE Bermuda Insurance / AEMC Construction / AIG Insurance / Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington / Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue / Allianz Global Risks / American Airlines / American Concrete Institute / American Institute of Steel Construction / American Red Cross / Applied Biosystems Inc. / Applied Research Associates / Arlington County Emergency Medical Services / Arlington County Fire Department / Arlington County Sheriff's Department / Arlington VA Police Department / Armed Forces Institute of Pathology / Armed Forces Institute of Technology Federal Advisory Committee / ARUP USA / Atlantic Heydt Inc. / Bechtel / Berlin Fire Department / Big Apple Wrecking / Blanford & Co. / Bode Technology Group / Bovis Inc. / Building and Construction Trades Council / Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms / C-130H crew in D.C. & Shanksville / Cal Berkeley Engineering Dept. / California Incident Management Team / Carter Burgess Engineering / Celera Genomics / Centers for Disease Control / Central City Fire Department / Central Intelligence Agency / Cleveland Airport control tower / Columbia University Department of Civil Engineering and Engineering Mechanics / Congressional Joint Intelligence Committee / Consolidated Edison Company / Construction Technologies Laboratory / Controlled Demolitions Inc. / Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat / Counterterrorism and Security Group / CTL Engineering / D.H. Griffin Wrecking Co. Inc. / DeSimone Consulting Engineers / Dewhurst MacFarlane &Partners / DiSalvo Ericson Engineering / District of Columbia Fire & Rescue / DOD Honor Guard, Pentagon / D'Onofrio Construction / E-4B National Airborne Operations Center crews / Edwards and Kelcey Engineering / Engineering Systems, Inc. / Environmental protection Agency / Exponent Failure Analysis Associates / EYP Mission CriticalFacilities / Fairfax County Fire & Rescue / Falcon 20 crew in PA / Family members who received calls from victims on the planes / FBI Evidence Recovery Teams / Federal Aviation Administration / Federal Bureau of Investigation / Federal Emergency Management Agency / Federal Insurance Co. / FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams: Arizona Task Force 1, California Task Force 1, California Task Force 3, California Task Force 7, Colorado Task Force 1, Fairfax Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 2, Maryland Task Force 1, Massachusetts Task Force 1, Metro Dade/Miami, Nebraska Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, New York Task Force 1, Pennsylvania Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Texas Task Force 1, Utah Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, Washington Task Force 1 / FEMA Disaster Field Office / FEMA Emergency Response Team / FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Incident Support Team-Advanced 3 / Fire Department of New York / Fort Myer Fire Department / French Urban Search & Rescue Task Force / Friedens Volunteer Fire Department / Gateway Demolition / Gene Code Forensics / Georgia Tech Engineering Dept. / Gilsanz Murray Steficek LLP / GMAC Financing / Goldstein Associates Consulting Engineers / Guy Nordenson Associates / HAKS Engineers / Hampton-Clarke Inc. / HHS National Medical Response Team / HLW International Engineering / Hooversville Rescue Squad. / Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department / Hoy Structural Services / Hughes Associates, Inc / Hugo Neu Schnitzer East / hundreds of ironworkers, some of whom built the WTC / Hundreds of New York City Police Department Detectives / Industrial Risk Insurers / Institute for Civil Infrastructure Systems / International Association of Fire Chiefs / International Union of Operating Engineers Locals 14 & 15 / J.R. Harris & Company / Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority / Karl Koch Steel Consulting Inc. / KCE Structural Engineers / Koch Skanska / Koutsoubis, Alonso Associates / Laboratory Corp. of America / Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory / Leslie E. Robertson Associates / LIRo Engineering / Listie Volunteer Fire Company / Lockwood Consulting / M.G. McLaren Engineering / Masonry Society / Mazzocchi Wrecking Inc. / Metal Management Northeast / Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit / Miami-Dade Urban Search & Rescue / Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team / Montgomery County Fire & Rescue / Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers / Murray Engineering / Myriad Genetic Laboratories Inc. / National Center for Biotechnology Informatics / National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States / National Council of Structural Engineers Associations / National Disaster Medical System / National Emergency Numbering Association / National Fire Protection Association / National Guard in D.C., New York, and Pennsylvania / National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) / National Institutes of Health Human Genome Research Institute / National Law Enforcement and Security Institute / National Military Command Center / National Reconnaissance Office / National Response Center / National Science Foundation Division of Civil and Mechanical Systems / National Security Agency / National Transportation Safety Board / National Wrecking / Natural Hazards Research and Applications Information Center / New Jersey State Police / New York City Department of Buildings WTC Task Force / New York City Department of Design and Construction / New York City Department of Environmental Protection / New York City Office of Emergency Management / New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner / New York City Police Department Aviation Unit / New York City Police Department Emergency Services Unit / New York Daily News / New York Flight Control Center / New York Newsday / New York Port Authority Construction Board / New York Port Authority Police / New York State Emergency Management Office / New York State Police Forensic Services / New York Times / North American Aerospace Defense Command / Northeast Air Defense Sector Commanders and crew / Numerous bomb-sniffing dogs / Numerous Forensic Anthropologists / Numerous Forensic Dentists / Numerous Forensic Pathologists / Numerous Forensic Radiologists / NuStats / Occupational Safety and Health Administration / Office of Emergency Preparedness / Office of Strategic Services / Orchid Cellmark / Parsons Brinckerhoff Engineering / Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection / Pennsylvania Department of Health and Human Services / Pennsylvania Region 13 Metropolitan Medical Response Group / Pennsylvania State Funeral Directors Association / Pennsylvania State Police / Pentagon Defense Protective Service / Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team / Pentagon Medical Staff / Pentagon Renovation Team / Phillips & Jordan, Inc. / Port of New York and New Jersey Authority / Pro-Safety Services / Protec / Public Entity Risk Institute / Purdue University Engineering Dept. / Robert Silman Associates Structural Engineers / Rolf Jensen & Associates, Inc / Rosenwasser/Grossman Consulting Engineers / Royal SunAlliance/Royal Indemnity / SACE Prime Power Assessment Teams / SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams / Salvation Army Disaster Services / several EPA Hazmat Teams / several FBI Hazmat Teams / several Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams / several Federal Disaster Mortuary (DMORT) Teams / Severud Associates Consulting Engineers / Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company / Silverstein Properties / Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Engineers / Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP / Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire / Society of Fire Protection Engineers / Somerset Ambulance Association / Somerset County Coroner's Office / Somerset County Emergency Management Agency / Somerset Volunteer Fire Department / St. Paul/Travelers Insurance / State of Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency / Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company / Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE) / Structural Engineers Association of New York / Superstructures Engineering / Swiss Re America Insurance / Telephone operators who took calls from passengers in the hijacked planes / Teng & Associates / Thornton-Tomasetti Group, Inc. / TIG Insurance / Tokio Marine & Fire / Transportation Safety Administration / Tully Construction / Twin City Fire Insurance / Tylk Gustafson Reckers Wilson Andrews Engineering / U.S. Army Corps of Engineers / Underwriters Laboratories / Union Wrecking / United Airlines / United States Air National Guard / United States Fire Administration / United States Secret Service / United Steelworkers of America / University of Sheffield Fire Engineering Research / US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County / US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command / US Department of Defense / US Department of Justice / US Department of State / Virginia Beach Fire Department / Virginia Department of Emergency Management / Virginia State Police / Vollmer Associates Engineers / Washington Post / Weeks Marine / Weidlinger Associates / Weiskopf & Pickworth Engineering / Westmoreland County Emergency Management Agency / Whitney Contracting / Willis Group Holdings / WJE Structural Engineers / Worcester Polytechnic Institute / World Trade Center security staff / XL Insurance / Yonkers Contracting / York International / Zurich Financial / Zurich Re Risk Engineering

Taken from here.

I've estimated that in the past as over 100,000 people who would have to be aware of at least part of the conspiracy in order for it to be carried out. 100,000 people... and not one of them has come forward in nearly nine years to state it was a conspiracy.

Mathematically speaking, the more people who are aware of something, the greater the chance becomes that one of them will break their silence. The chance of that increases exponentially as more and more people are added to those who know the secret. I've never tried to calculate it, but the likelihood of all 100,000+ people remaining silent for nearly 9 years is almost infinitesimally small at this point, most likely. So you explain to me why you think 100,000+ people have remained silent about the deaths of nearly 3,000 people and the conspiracy by the government to effect said deaths in order to deliberately gain something (no one's ever explained what) out of it, and please, at least TRY to make it sound logical, mmkay?

 

[tsig]

Just a question:

What were the actual recorded decibel levels during the collapses?

Anyone with a NIST volume/section/chapter/sub-chapter link?

I see, you're just asking questions.

 

[tsig]

Why is so much of this thread being spent discussing proper French grammar?

Hey Truthers, did you miss this one:

Because truthers would rather talk about anything but the truth.

 

[sts60]

Just a quick note; you are familiar with the saying "Three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead", are you not? Are you aware of the number of people who would have to have been aware of at least part of the conspiracy in order for it to be carried out? No? Well, here's a partial (note the emphasis) list for you:
[...]
Taken from here.

And let's not forget Woodsboro Volunteer Fire Company. Because when you're covering up one of the greatest criminal conspiracies ever, you certainly want to bring in some small-town Maryland fire company to help keep your secret.

I've estimated that in the past as over 100,000 people who would have to be aware of at least part of the conspiracy in order for it to be carried out. 100,000 people... and not one of them has come forward in nearly nine years to state it was a conspiracy.. . .
... So you explain to me why you think 100,000+ people have remained silent about the deaths of nearly 3,000 people and the conspiracy by the government to effect said deaths in order to deliberately gain something (no one's ever explained what) out of it, and please, at least TRY to make it sound logical, mmkay?

As a volunteer member of one of the organizations listed - and who literally trusts some of those guys, who were at the Pentagon that day, with my life if things go south on the fireground - the notion that they would conspire to cover up this wacky alleged conspiracy is both contemptible and laughable at the same time. But I've gone from being irritated by it, more to feeling sorry for the loons who buy into it.

Especially due to the Rube Golderg-esqueness of it all. If the evil, all-powerful "real conspirators" wanted to do this, why not just pay some zealots to do it, or arrange to pay the families of some terminally-ill pilots? Why not just arrange to put real, not imaginary bombs, in the WTC, and blame a breakdown in security? Why not arrange for a tactical nuke, or at least a suitable amount of fissile material, to be "lost" and used by the bad guys? What would scare the American public more than that, and do greater harm? Any one of those scenarios would require far fewer people and be vastly simpler. But something in the conspiracy-believer makeup requires this vast, complicated, Da Vinci Code-meets-It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World whirligig to be what really happened. It's not a matter for engineers; it's a matter for psychologists.

 

[240-185]

Why is so much of this thread being spent discussing proper French grammar?

Hey Truthers, did you miss this one:

Erm, when ImANiceGuy showed up with technical questions, everybody debunked him already. So, what is left is French grammar

 

[Stout]

I've estimated that in the past as over 100,000 people who would have to be aware of at least part of the conspiracy in order for it to be carried out. 100,000 people... and not one of them has come forward in nearly nine years to state it was a conspiracy.

Mathematically speaking, the more people who are aware of something, the greater the chance becomes that one of them will break their silence. The chance of that increases exponentially as more and more people are added to those who know the secret. I've never tried to calculate it, but the likelihood of all 100,000+ people remaining silent for nearly 9 years is almost infinitesimally small at this point, most likely. So you explain to me why you think 100,000+ people have remained silent about the deaths of nearly 3,000 people and the conspiracy by the government to effect said deaths in order to deliberately gain something (no one's ever explained what) out of it, and please, at least TRY to make it sound logical, mmkay?

I fully agree, yet truthers seem to delight in avoiding these kind of numbers.

Really, you've got to figure that by now, somebody would have burned through their million ( or whatever figure it would take to keep someone quiet about their "role" in the murder of 3000 people ) by now, gotten used to the lifestyle and started hammering on Hollywood's door with a good story.

 

[BillyRayValentine]

Mathematically speaking, the more people who are aware of something, the greater the chance becomes that one of them will break their silence. The chance of that increases exponentially as more and more people are added to those who know the secret. I've never tried to calculate it, but the likelihood of all 100,000+ people remaining silent for nearly 9 years is almost infinitesimally small at this point, most likely. So you explain to me why you think 100,000+ people have remained silent about the deaths of nearly 3,000 people and the conspiracy by the government to effect said deaths in order to deliberately gain something (no one's ever explained what) out of it, and please, at least TRY to make it sound logical, mmkay?

And let's remember that this isn't just a tally of people keeping a secret. It's a tally of knowing participants in mass murder plus some number of unwitting pawns who were duped into playing a role in mass murder, and who surely must have figured this out after the fact. So it's basically a list of mass murderers and those who unknowingly abetted mass murder and are unwilling to come forward and blow the lid off.

When I think about the bad guys putting together this list, i.e. the "9/11 team," I can't help but burst out laughing. The belief that it would be possible to assemble a team of thousands of mass murderers, in complete secrecy, no less, is baffling in its stupidity.

 

[Oystein]

Erm, when ImANiceGuy showed up with technical questions, everybody debunked him already. So, what is left is French grammar

That was debunked early on as well, but at least we haven't been through bad French as many times as through bad forensics.

 

[nvidiot]

It's likely the 38 hours without sleep speaking here, but is it in any way possible, (forget miniscule nature of the possibility) that the hijackers were not operating under the instructions of their "official" commanders, but under the command of others with the intention of conspiracy? Have we established a firm chain of command and timeline for the hijackers actions and immediate superiors saying : go!

/end stupid posting

(p.s. not a truther by any stretch of the imagination. First thought I had when I saw the towers hit late at night local time those 9 years ago was "bin laden".)

 

[Sabrina]

It's likely the 38 hours without sleep speaking here, but is it in any way possible, (forget miniscule nature of the possibility) that the hijackers were not operating under the instructions of their "official" commanders, but under the command of others with the intention of conspiracy? Have we established a firm chain of command and timeline for the hijackers actions and immediate superiors saying : go!

/end stupid posting

(p.s. not a truther by any stretch of the imagination. First thought I had when I saw the towers hit late at night local time those 9 years ago was "bin laden".)

Perhaps its your 38 hours without sleep causing the issue, but I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you rephrase once you've gotten some sleep and are more coherent? I want to be sure we answer your question properly.

 

[Oystein]

I think he is asking how well it is established that the chain of command the ended with the Atta, his other 3 pilots and the 15 muscle hijackers, originated in Osama Bin Laden, versus the idea that somehow others intervened and Atta and co. only believed they were a cell of Al Qaida. Some secret service maybe.

 

[Sabrina]

Ah.

Well, the answer is there's no evidence supporting that theory, but that doesn't negate it as a possibility. If evidence could be produced that does support such a theory, I'd be inclined to give it a further look. But as far as I know, the only evidence in existence points to KSM and Bin Laden orchestrating the plot and the 19 hijackers carrying it out.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

nvidiot,

It's sort of a mistake to try and think of the "mission" like a military one with a rigid command and control. Bin Laden personally chose the mission's leader (Atta) as well as some of the participants (for example: al-Midhar, al-Hazmi), and KSM did just about all the nuts-and-bolts planning and, IIRC, much of the logistics, but after all that, I get the distinct impression that there was no day-to-day contact, and furthermore that once the "Go" was given that everyone from Atta on down just worked on their own. All they had to do, after all, was buy tickets and take over the jets; everything short of that was merely the logistics of getting to that point. And so, I agree with Sabrina: Because I don't see any evidence of rigid control over the hijackers, it's of course entirely possible that some other influence could have been exerted over the hijackers.

But the problem is, that possibility is built on nothing more than the lack of rigid control and the existence of the opportunity, and that's it. As Sabrina said, there's no positive evidence for this to have occurred. Plus, I'm sort of at a loss as to what additional control influences would've meant, given that the hijackers executed the KSM created and bin Laden blessed plan anyway. If there were additional influences, they either ended up having no sway over the hijackers, or merely reinforced what the plan was to begin with. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that the plan was inspired by OBL, planned out by KSM, and executed by Atta and all the others.

If some truther wants to insert some LIHOP or non-CD MIHOP into there, the argument starts with evidence. I'd need to see some. Otherwise, the mere lack of contact and minute control by KSM means nothing more than the opportunity having existed; claiming that someone actually took advantage of that opportunity requires evidence.

 

[T.A.M.]

Atta - Ramzi Binalshibh - KSM - OBL

Their are documents confirming each of the above connections, and confirming that all of them were involved in the "Planes" mission.

TAM