• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Dead skin cells don't contain DNA?

In regard to dust, this form the New Scientist:

With further research it might be possible to find ways of recreating someone's profile or even working out how recently they'd visited a crime scene from the decay of their DNA.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826584.200-telltale-dna-sucked-out-of-household-dust.html

They are only just about able to extract partial profiles from dust. Complete profiles are somewhere over the horizon and will require a specific technique.

The DNA on the bra clasp has nothing to do with 'dust'.

It should also be noted the girls kept the cottage very clean in any case. It was not a dirty place.
 
As I understand it, Dr Stefanoni didn't process the victim's DNA on that machine, rather referred to her charts/data. Indeed, that machine had never hitherto been used to test any item or individual connected with the case.
This I had not heard before. I don't suppose you've got a good quote to hand to support that. It seems to me like a powerful piece of information.
 
It would be even more useful to see the lab notes and .fsa files for all 460 DNA samples tested in the case by that lab.
 
An article from the forensic literature on DNA and dust

To all,

Here is an abstract about DNA and dust:

Forensic Sci Int. 2008 Jun 10;178(1):7-15. Epub 2008 Apr 16.
Characterization of human DNA in environmental samples.
Toothman MH, Kester KM, Champagne J, Cruz TD, Street WS 4th, Brown BL.
Department of Biology, Virginia Commonwealth University, 1000 W. Cary Street, Richmond, VA 23284-2012, USA.
Environmental samples from indoor surfaces can be confounded by dust, which is composed largely of human skin cells and has been documented to contain roughly tens of micrograms of total DNA per gram of dust. This study complements previous published work by providing estimates of the quantity of amplifiable human DNA found in environmental samples from a typical indoor environment, categorized by the intensity of human traffic and visible quantity of dust. Dust was collected by surface swabbing standard 576 cm(2) areas in eight locations, and evaluated for total DNA quantity, presence of human DNA (mitochondrial and nuclear loci using conventional PCR), quantity of human nuclear DNA using quantitative PCR, and STR analysis. The total DNA content of 36 dust samples ranged from 9 to 28 ng/cm(2), and contained 0.2-1.1 pg/cm(2) of human DNA. Overall, human DNA was detected in 97% of 36 dust samples and 61% of samples yielded allele distributions of varying degrees of complexity when subjected to STR analysis. The implications of this study are twofold. First, the presence of dust in evidence can be a significant contamination source in forensic investigations because the human DNA component is of sufficient quality and quantity to produce allele calls in STR analysis. This can be effectively managed by implementing stringent protocols for collection and analysis of potential biological samples. A second implication is the use of dust as a source of evidence for identification of inhabitants within a defined location. In the latter case, a number of additional studies would be necessary to identify relevant pretreatments for environmental dust samples and to develop the necessary deconvolution techniques to separate the composite genotypes obtained.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18420364
(emphasis added)

I hope this helps to move the discussion forward. I would be interested in hearing more about the degree to which keratinized skin cells have their nuclei removed. It is unclear how it could be 100% or touching an object would not transfer DNA, as Kestrel pointed out.

Chris
 
I hope this helps to move the discussion forward. I would be interested in hearing more about the degree to which keratinized skin cells have their nuclei removed. It is unclear how it could be 100% or touching an object would not transfer DNA, as Kestrel pointed out.

Chris
I don't think anybody is claiming it is 100%.

By the way, I'm not clear what scenario you're suggesting for contamination here. Are you meaning dust from the murder room? Or are you meaning somebody touched something somewhere else, the door nob to Amanda's room say, then touched a bunch of other things and then the bra clasp? Or do you agree that they had a new set of gloves for each room, in which case, are you meaning that somebody touched something, say Amanda's door nob, and then touched something in the murder room,which was then touched by the forensics guy who collected the clasp transferring it to the clasp (I guess there would still have to be a breakdown in protocol here).
 
To all,

Here is an abstract about finding DNA in dust in New Scientist which states that finding DNA profiles in dust not yet ripe

".... The amount of DNA in dust is tiny and from so many people that singling out any individual could be tricky. With further research it might be possible to find ways of recreating someone's profile or even working out how recently they'd visited a crime scene from the decay of their DNA...."

I think it's clear that while the future potential is there, from a current useful legal perspective, it's not quite there yet.

As the conversation above has pointed out, if you have a strong DNA sample on an item of evidence, at most the contamination from dust would produce some noise, but shouldn't affect the overall determination of the profile.
 
Last edited:
Can somebody check my maths....

There was 1400 picograms of Raffaele's DNA on the clasp. There is 0.2-1.1 pg/cm(2) of DNA from dust on indoor surfaces, if the study posted by Halides1 is to be believed. So, assuming all the DNA in the dust was from Raffaele, that would imply 280-1540 cm(2) worth of dust. Clearly if the dust isn't purely composed of Raffaele's DNA a greated surface areas worth of dust would be required.

This to me looks like confirmation that 'dust' is unlikely to be the source.
 
knife DNA profile

To all,

We are all agreed that the number of short terminal repeats in the peaks from the knife blade profile are mostly the same as that from Meredith Kercher’s reference profile. However, there are four basic problems with the profile of DNA culled from the knife blade, all of which make it poorer in quality to a normal profile. These problems were either addressed explicitly or implied in the open letter concerning the DNA evidence, co-signed by nine DNA forensic specialists (http://www.friendsofamanda.org/articles.html). They refer to it as “an extremely low level, partial profile” with alleles that were “consistent with the DNA of the victim.”

The first problem is the weakness of the signal intensities. The signals one typically observes are in the many hundreds or thousands of relative fluorescent units (RFUs). I am aware of thresholds of 50 to 150 RFUs, below which one ignores the peaks (there is one paper in the literature that advocates setting thresholds on the basis of the mean level of noise, not a set value of RFUs). Yet, 21 of 29 peaks in the knife profile are between 20 and 50 RFUs in intensity.

A second problem is that one should always set the threshold before doing the experiment. The machine-set limit was 50 RFUs (from what I can gather), yet the smallest peak in the electropherogram is 15 RFUs. Changing the limit after the experiment was done opens the door to bias. The textbook An Introduction to Forensic DNA analysis, 2nd ed. (Rudin, N. and Inman, K., CRC Press 2002, p. 121) states (emphasis added), “It is important to have some predetermined limit to distinguish what is signal and what is noise.”

The third problem with this DNA profile is the appearance of two peaks in locus D3S1358, both of which have an intensity of about 20 RFUs, and neither of which is part of Meredith’s profile. This may be a case of allele drop-in. In the D7S820 locus there is a peak with an intensity of 15 RFUs; therefore, it is difficult to see why the D7 peak should be included as part of Meredith’s profile but the two peaks in D3 ignored.

The fourth problem with this profile is that eight loci, D7S820, D16S539, D19S433, vWA, TPOX, D18S51, D5S818, FGA, have pairs of peaks in which the smaller peak is less than 70% of the height of the larger one. This value is typically 70-100% in a single source sample (Butler, Forensic DNA Typing, pp. 155-156). In other words, the lack of equality of peak height is often taken to mean that one is dealing with a mixture. However, the more plausible explanation in this case is that the DNA template is producing stochastic effects because the copy number is so low. IMHO, the problems noted above all support using conservative language in discussing the profile, as the signers of the open letter did.

If the profile arose from Meredith’s DNA, the more important question is how did it arise. The knife was tested for blood with tetramethylbenzidine, and it came up negative. In an interview with ABC, Dr. Elizabeth Johnson, one of the cosigners of the open letter, indicated that cleaning the knife would remove DNA from the knife more quickly than cleaning would remove blood. In other words the lack of blood makes the possible presence of DNA on the knife at the time of collection to be unlikely, and the DNA that was observed must have arisen from contamination. The authors of the open letter wrote, “There exists the real possibility that the low level, partial profile attributed to the knife blade is a result of unintended transfer in the laboratory during sample handling.” However, one might argue that some DNA from non-blood tissue was on the knife. If one could support this supposition, then one would be left with choosing between two events, contamination or non-blood DNA somehow escaping removal during putative cleaning of the knife.

There are other problems with the knife that fall outside of the scope of this thread.

Chris
 
While we are still waiting for the judges report (400+ pages being translated from Italian, due in a week and a half-ish - for the benefit of the Science forum folks understanding what we're on about), it is apparently claimed in that report that the sample was too small for the negative blood sample to mean that there was no blood. I'd be interested in a second opinion on that. Even so, Barbie Nadeau (journalist who covered the case with a book out) talks about minute quantities of flesh being recovered from the knifes blade and the blade. She also talks about the knife testing positive for bleach. Personally I'm not wildly impressed by her book so I'm not sure how much faith to put in her claims.
 
Well, they can claim it all they want. Who is going to audit them? If it is true that they have never had a contamination, then someone will be footing the bill. If it is false, then loss of lots of credibility. When you are dealing with sensitive samples, reputation is very important. Maybe they have never had a contamination, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen (skeptic in me). This is why other controls are vital. As I said, a single microliter could change the results.

Aren't audits regularly conducted on crime labs, their controls, and their procedures?

You have no arguments from me whatsoever about whether contamination could happen but in your experience in a somewhat related field, are you not subjected to regular audits?
 
Aren't audits regularly conducted on crime labs, their controls, and their procedures?

You have no arguments from me whatsoever about whether contamination could happen but in your experience in a somewhat related field, are you not subjected to regular audits?

I don't know if crime labs get regularly audited, but I would hope so. Since DNA evidence is being used more and more, I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that audits were being performed by some kind of regulatory agency paid by taxpayers.

Surprisingly, I get very few "official" audits. Working for a University mostly relies on peer review. If I didn't plan a control experiment or an experiment goes awry because of an uncalibrated instrument, it falls directly on my shoulders.
 
A second problem is that one should always set the threshold before doing the experiment. The machine-set limit was 50 RFUs (from what I can gather), yet the smallest peak in the electropherogram is 15 RFUs. Changing the limit after the experiment was done opens the door to bias. The textbook An Introduction to Forensic DNA analysis, 2nd ed. (Rudin, N. and Inman, K., CRC Press 2002, p. 121) states (emphasis added), “It is important to have some predetermined limit to distinguish what is signal and what is noise.”


Chris,

I just wanted to say that I don't dismiss your criticisms of the forensics out of hand. This subject comes up a lot on the JREF where people change the parameters of the question they were asking post hoc to artificially create a significant result. I've been thinking about this and I can't see how it is wrong to do IF one admits to having changed the parameters post hoc AND one interprets the odds of achieving a positive result in this context. Unquestionably, in statistical terms doing this does weaken the result. Having said that the profile looks a lot like Amanda's. Are we back to claiming that the result is a statistical fluke?

This is however a classic JREF question and I suspect it can be decoupled from the current debate and would be of interest to the wider forum.
 
Chris,

I just wanted to say that I don't dismiss your criticisms of the forensics out of hand. This subject comes up a lot on the JREF where people change the parameters of the question they were asking post hoc to artificially create a significant result. I've been thinking about this and I can't see how it is wrong to do IF one admits to having changed the parameters post hoc AND one interprets the odds of achieving a positive result in this context.

If you don't get the results you want the first time, try for two out of three.
 
JREF posters should recognize that guilt by association is a logical fallacy.

Besides, this is off topic for this tread. Read your membership agreement.

I wasn't aware you'd been promoted to a Moderator Kestrel.

And there is nothing wrong with my post, it is perfectly on-topic since it concerns the 'case' and this thread is about the 'case' and especially since the page I linked to discusses the DNA, the knife and the bra clasp which this thread was created to discuss was it not?

Sorry though if it was a bit too close to home for you Kestrel ;)
 
DNA profiles and thresholds

Chris,

I just wanted to say that I don't dismiss your criticisms of the forensics out of hand. This subject comes up a lot on the JREF where people change the parameters of the question they were asking post hoc to artificially create a significant result. I've been thinking about this and I can't see how it is wrong to do IF one admits to having changed the parameters post hoc AND one interprets the odds of achieving a positive result in this context. Unquestionably, in statistical terms doing this does weaken the result. Having said that the profile looks a lot like Amanda's. Are we back to claiming that the result is a statistical fluke?

This is however a classic JREF question and I suspect it can be decoupled from the current debate and would be of interest to the wider forum.

shuttit,

I think that there are two separate questions to answer with respect to the DNA on the knife blade. The first is whether the knife blade profile should be identified as Meredith’s profile for the purposes of Knox/Sollecito trial. To that question my answer is that the profile does not clear the legal bar, IMHO, for the reasons I gave. Even if one excuses the eight peak height imbalances by saying that this is a low copy number (LCN) situation, that means the knife blade should have been tested at least twice, according to the 2010 article in Nature cited upthread, as well as other sources.

The second question is whether or not the knife blade profile arose from Meredith’s DNA. If the knife blade had yielded a good electropherogram, the chances of its being Meredith’s DNA would be quite high. However, not all of the loci should be used in a calculation in this instance, because the peaks are too small, etc. For the sake of argument, I am comfortable assuming that Meredith’s DNA is responsible for the profile (my hunch is that it arose from Meredith’s DNA to at least 51% probability). I don’t want that statement misunderstood: I don’t think anyone should testify in court to the effect that the odds of its not being Meredith’s DNA are, for example, one in one billion. That sort of calculation and statement presumes a good, complete DNA profile, and this one is a weak, partial profile.

For reasons given above, I do not think the knife blade had any DNA on it when it was taken into evidence. Hundreds of samples were run and many contained Meredith’s DNA. Polymerase chain reaction (PCR) amplifies the amount of DNA by at least one millionfold. That is why post-PCR DNA is recognized as a danger with respect to contamination.

With respect to resetting the intensity thresholds, I have a couple of questions that I would ask myself before I did so. First, why did I set them to certain levels in the first place, and do I think that I made a mistake to do so? If I did not have a good answer to this question, I would start to wonder about my own objectivity. Second, am I now going to analyze all of the electropherograms with the new threshold, and if I do, what reinterpretations will be necessary? It is worth pointing out that lowering the threshold will sometimes favor the defense (I have seen an example of this but I cannot locate it just now).

Chris
 
What the article actually said about DNA and dust

To all,

The paper from Forensic Science International sampled classrooms, among other places, and these areas would be expected to have contributions from many individuals. This fact would make it difficult to identify a single individual, which was not the point of this study, anyway. Here are some quotes from this paper:

“We demonstrate here that human DNA is present in genotypeable amounts in indoor surface samples composed primarily of dust.”

“This study demonstrates that human DNA is present in indoor dust in sufficient quantity to amplify with qPCR and to yield human STR genotypes.”

“However, because our sampling locations were regularly occupied by many people, identification of a single individual was not an objective of our study.” (emphasis added)

“Alleles were designated typeable at a specific locus analyzed on the MJ BaseStation 51TM if the peaks present exceeded the validated minimum threshold (200 RFUs).”

“Here we have demonstrated the ability to gain at least partial profiles for numerous people inhabiting one location, without pre-amplification of DNA in the samples.”

“Results of this study have implications regarding the processing of forensic samples. First, the presence of genotypeable human DNA in dust illustrates a significant potential contamination source in forensic investigations. Twenty-five of 36 samples contained sufficient input human DNA for STR analysis using the AmpF‘STR1 Profiler PlusTM assay ( 1.0 ng), and 36% (including low-input samples) produced alleles at multiple loci. These results demonstrate that even though anti-contamination measures may be in place at a crime scene and in the laboratory, trace DNA derived from dust in the vicinity of other evidence is capable of producing signals higher than background noise in STR analyses.”

Chris
 
Thanks for proving the point halides1. Partial profiles only can be extracted from dust and only then with amplification.

It's settled then.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom