Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[humber]

No anden

Well, it looks like George may have the last laugh.

 

[jduffy77]

Quick update:

The record stands
humber's report doesn't exist
humber's videos don't exist
humber's cart that advances on the treadmill without a prop doesn't exist

Humber has also not yet managed to convince a single person that he is right even after more than 8 million words of effort. It is impossible to imagine how completely ineffectual he must feel. It is likely all of us have had our endeavors which haven't met with the level of success that we would have wished from time to time, but I think that failure on the Humber scale may well be unprecedented. 8 million words, 3 years, thousands of hypotheses proven wrong and not a single positive result. That is truly monumental failure.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

Well, it looks like George may have the last laugh.

The last laugh will forever be at your hilarious nonsense.

JB

 

[windgrins]

Profpangloss and the Treadmill

PPG,

Since you are holding on so tight to the vibration argument as the way to explain carts going up the TM, Are we to assume if one had a "vibrationless" TM that the TM would indeed be a valid transform of the ground and wind?

If not, what are the other issues with the TM that are not captured?

In other words, is the vibration issue the only reason the TM is not a valid transform for this purpose?

WindGrins

 

[spork]

PPG,

Since you are holding on so tight to the vibration argument as the way to explain carts going up the TM, Are we to assume if one had a "vibrationless" TM that the TM would indeed be a valid transform of the ground and wind?

Forget about a vibrationless treadmill. If vibration is the reason this thing works, it should work just as well without the silly propeller. If only PPG could explain why removing the propeller makes the vibration stop on every treadmill ever made.

 

[jduffy77]

PPG,

Since you are holding on so tight to the vibration argument as the way to explain carts going up the TM, Are we to assume if one had a "vibrationless" TM that the TM would indeed be a valid transform of the ground and wind?

If not, what are the other issues with the TM that are not captured?

In other words, is the vibration issue the only reason the TM is not a valid transform for this purpose?

I think I can predict that ppg will not answer this question with a fair degree of certainty. In fact I would give better odds that our sun will super nova by later this afternoon.

 

[HoverBoarder]

PPG, As stated earlier and I see Semper beat me to it:

The thing is, even if we accept that there are mounting forces between the treadmill chassis and the floor of the magnitude you are proposing, there is no explanation of how that will affect acceleration of the belt, nor then how that would affect the cart on the belt,

You've been asked to explain that in light of the evidence that the wheels turn smoothly with no discernible skidding or any behaviour not consistent with the carteers explanation and you have been spectacularly unable to do so.

BTW, what will it have to do with kinematics?

You may also have noticed that I agreed with Humber on one of his points about the paper presented, but not all. The one point in my comments that should be noted is the part about not being able to discern from the description how the tests were performed and if the results were valid in the actual magnitudes of the vibrations. As Humber stated, (and I agree on this) if the Hammer used to excite the frame for an impulse test had no sensor for a calibration mechanism for the energy imparted, The measured magnitudes of the resulting force are not meaningless but they can't be used for magnitude values except relatively. In other words, the frequency spectrum of the resonance of the chassis could be ascertained but not the absolute levels. For the authors purpose, they showed that the resonances were all above their area of interest so they could simply LPF (Low-Pass Filter) the transducer signals and eliminate any high frequency resonance introduced by the motor. (This is ascertained from the Integral of power spectrum diagram). They did have one unexplained resonance at about 73 Hz that I'm surprised was not mentioned but it was of the same magnitude of the mentioned 90 Hz resonance. If you read the paper closely, and you have experience in this, you too can glean this.

Now finally, I've taken great care to answer all your questions in a serious and studied way but I see you have ignored most of mine such as:

The one you did answer-How is it that the earth's surface can act as IRF today at noon when the same point on it will be going at 2000 miles/hour (roughly) in the opposite direction at midnight (12 hours later)? That's quite an acceleration! Almost as if the surface of the earth is on one big giant 8000 mile diameter roller! I guess it can't be an IRF either by your argument.

You responded that the minor forces (correctly) could be ignored as they did not have an impact upon our problem. I agreed so I posed the following:

Suppose if we could we built a TM with the belt going entirely around the world and we run it a 10 mph over the earth's surface. (yes, I know we don't have the engineering and money to do this but that's why we call it a thought experiment.)

Question 1. Since the accelerations are all the same on the TM roller as the earth, can this be a valid platform for this discussion. If not, why not?

Question 2. If it is a valid platform, can a small portion of it be simulated by our TM moving at 10 mph? If not, why not?

The other one you seem to ignore is my statement about "force, power, and energy explanations all have to be consistent. Reason correctly in the simplest and derive the remainder from this and you have your explanation. Your'e idea is to find a model where you can ignore the axial force increase that exists on the prop due to the tail wind, make calculations which supposedly prove your point, and remain entrenched in your view. Most of us know this is where your missing power is but you continue to ignore this. You continue to produce power arguments as if the cart is in a no wind situation and ignore the power input from the wind. And one final time, yes I understand that it doesn't look like wind on the prop at WS but there is definitely a difference operating at WS vs no wind which keeps being ignored in your analysis.

On the vibration topic-Asking about vibrations having an effect is reasonable. Ignoring all the evidence which shows that it is inconsistent with results is not.

Overall,

When the questions get tough and they point out the problems in your argument, you duck them. This is indicative of someone who is emotionally tied to their line of thought and not open to learning.

There's not much point in responding to dramatically tortured counter explanations until you are willing to face up to the fundamentals. When (or if) this occurs, I'll be happy to discuss those with you. But again, I said "discuss", not listen to a one way diatribe of someone who is fighting just to stick to a preordained emotional based conclusion-which is of course "the cart can't work because I think it can't"

Fundamentally, I care that the physics is correct and not that I am. You seem to be in the opposite world. Until this changes, we are worlds apart.


Windgrins

Everytime I read this thread, I am amazed at how this discussion could have taken 10,000 posts to address...

But than I see time and time again where rational and well thought out posts like yours are just ignored, and responded to with fake mathmatical calculations and emotional arguments.

I am not sure if anything can be done to convince Humber or ppg.

Quick update:

The record stands
humber's report doesn't exist
humber's videos don't exist
humber's cart that advances on the treadmill without a prop doesn't exist


More as it develops...

Maybe I missed this somewhere in the hundreds of pages of discussion, but why doesn't Humber just build a cart without a prop that advances on a treadmill and prove everyone (or himself) wrong?

 

[phunk]

vibrational forces that are 30 times greater than the gravitational force acting on the cart

That is wrong. If the 90kg treadmill is experiencing 60N of force, it is accelerating at 0.66m/s². That is not 30G, it is 0.068 G. You are off by a factor of 441.

 

[humber]

Forget about a vibrationless treadmill. If vibration is the reason this thing works, it should work just as well without the silly propeller. If only PPG could explain why removing the propeller makes the vibration stop on every treadmill ever made.

On the contrary. Without the prop, the cart is scarcely pulled by the belt, vibration or not. All the is needed is a small opposing force of a fraction of a Newton.

There is no relationship with that, and the wind. The TM goes back to Bauer, and he may have known that too, but kept quite. Science based on wagers, leads to problems, and passed on to you via Goodman.

 

[humber]

Maybe I missed this somewhere in the hundreds of pages of discussion, but why doesn't Humber just build a cart without a prop that advances on a treadmill and prove everyone (or himself) wrong?

Alreadt done, but what does it say about you, when a cart without a prop drifts back with only a force of less than 0.05N? Why are you even asking if that is not possible to counter, and what is has to do with a cart in the wind.
The TM has absolutely nothing to so with Galilean Transforms. Take for example the angle of the TM. If that were to represent an incline, then the cart would raise itself in the gravitational field. At "WS" it doesn't, because it's not moving. How can it be said to be moving in one plane, but not the other?
There is some small motion of about 0.1m/s, but again, the vertical motion is only 0.1*Sin(angle) and not Beltspeed*Sin (angle)

Relative velocity does no allow things to be likened. Just because the velocity of A relative to B is the same as B relative to A, does not make A the same as B, or transposable. The TM is a primitive logical error.

 

[jduffy77]

Everytime I read this thread, I am amazed at how this discussion could have taken 10,000 posts to address...

FYI, your number is off by quite a few orders of magnitude. Humber's idiocy has continued basically uninterrupted over multiple sites for three years. Humber alone has written just under 8.1 million words in this thread in over 30000 posts. The total post count is well over 200k.

 

[jduffy77]

Alreadt done...

Humber I think he meant in reality, not in your fantasy world.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And another Galilean fail by humber. I had thought he might have disappeared. Wishful thinking I guess.

humber, the treadmill never "pulls" on the cart. If anything it opposes its forward motion. The rolling friction will always be a force opposing its motion. That is why the propless cart slows down once released and falls off of the end of the treadmill. Remember, the velocity of the cart on the treadmill is measured relative to the treadmill belt. By holding it in place when the treadmill is going ten mph that is its starting speed when released. If the cart slows down from that speed, as the prop less cart does, it falls off of the back of the cart. If it speeds up, as the cart with a propeller does, it goes to the front of the treadmill and must be pushed back to keep it in place.

Maybe if we repeat these facts a few more thousand times you will understand this.

 

[spork]

Maybe I missed this somewhere in the hundreds of pages of discussion, but why doesn't Humber just build a cart without a prop that advances on a treadmill and prove everyone (or himself) wrong?

humber doesn't DO anything. He only talks about all the things he's done and plans to do. But his favorite thing of all is to talk about those that do things, and how they've done them all wrong. humber will never build a cart, post a video, or produce his "report".

 

[spork]

And another Galilean fail by humber...

Better still, he's trying to prove that the cart is not the treadmill. That's a better strawman than I think I've ever seen.

 

[humber]

That is wrong. If the 90kg treadmill is experiencing 60N of force, it is accelerating at 0.66m/s². That is not 30G, it is 0.068 G. You are off by a factor of 441.

1g = 9.812ms-2
1N = 9.812kgms-2
What will that 60N do to a 0.16kg cart? The TM does not have to move to transmit a force to a mass on it.

I doubt the recorded numbers are accurate, and probably the result of taking the load platform's static balance, to be the same as its dynamic balance.
I don't have the figure to hand, but a quick mnemonic is to remember that at 20Hz, the level of perception to ground vibration detected primarily by the spine, is ~1*10-² ms-2. That "ultra-low noise TM" would be like handling a pneumatic drill.

 

[jduffy77]

Maybe I missed this somewhere in the hundreds of pages of discussion, but why doesn't Humber just build a cart without a prop that advances on a treadmill and prove everyone (or himself) wrong?

I think I can help you with this question. Humber has truly backed himself into a corner on this one. Humber "knows" that such a cart can be built. He was so certain that he said he had already built it, when of course he did not (since in reality it is not possible). Since he is certain that it can be built he thinks it is just a matter of tweaking his design. He is currently in the tweaking phase. I expect he has watched thousands of cart like contraptions fly off the back of the belt.

Humber believes, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, that ddwfttw is impossible. Nothing will ever change his mind. Imagine someone who is completely certain that not all rocks are affected by gravity. He stakes his whole being on the fact he will be able to demonstrate this exceptional rock soon. Rational people don't have to spend time testing rocks since we can ascribe common properties to all rocks using physics. In Humber's case we can only watch in pity and sadness (and yes, sometimes amusement) as he spends the rest of his life collecting rocks and dropping them off his roof.

 

[humber]

I think I can help you with this question. Humber has truly backed himself into a corner on this one. Humber "knows" that such a cart can be built. He was so certain that he said he had already built it, when of course he did not (since in reality it is not possible). Since he is certain that it can be built he thinks it is just a matter of tweaking his design. He is currently in the tweaking phase. I expect he has watched thousands of cart like contraptions fly off the back of the belt.

Humber believes, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, that ddwfttw is impossible. Nothing will ever change his mind. Imagine someone who is completely certain that not all rocks are affected by gravity. He stakes his whole being on the fact he will be able to demonstrate this exceptional rock soon. Rational people don't have to spend time testing rocks since we can ascribe common properties to all rocks using physics. In Humber's case we can only watch in pity and sadness (and yes, sometimes amusement) as he spends the rest of his life collecting rocks and dropping them off his roof.

Then you will have enough humble pie to last you for decades. Keep up the rhetoric, so that the pie gets even larger.

 

[humber]

humber doesn't DO anything. He only talks about all the things he's done and plans to do. But his favorite thing of all is to talk about those that do things, and how they've done them all wrong. humber will never build a cart, post a video, or produce his "report".

Laughable. Llyricist is wrong, but he puts more time and effort into supporting the cart, (to the point of learning Java) than you do, or are capable of doing.
You took a year and a team to build a simple cart, but not very well.

Funny, also, how you hope I won't make that cart, rather than it no being relevant if I do or not. Worried?

 

[jduffy77]

Then you will have enough humble pie to last you for decades. Keep up the rhetoric, so that the pie gets even larger.

I know Humber, I know. Maybe today will be the day! Keep tweaking...