Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[mender]

I Ratant's free-wheeler will beat the geared cart, hands down. This time, we have a logical and methodical tester, who controls conditions and responds to remarks. Your cart will fail.

Enjoy your privileged status for as long as you can, I Ratant; once your tests no longer support Booger, you and your tests will be the object of his scorn and be eligible to usage only when given a thick covering of humber-mâché.

There was a time when I was a reliable source, being deemed too stoopid to be able to produce results that disagreed with Booger's master thesis. When the inevitable happened and physics was yet again proven during my tests, Booger was caught flat-footed and his only defense was that I managed to pull a fast one on him.

That quickly changed to me somehow being able to bend the laws of physics to my will instead, that being a much lesser evil than little ol' mender tricking and outsmarting the mighty Booger so masterfully that he was speechless (and postless) for almost two days!

 

[mender]

Guess how the TM really works?

You first.

 

[humber]

Enjoy your privileged status for as long as you can, I Ratant; once your tests no longer support Booger, you and your tests will be the object of his scorn and be eligible to usage only when given a thick covering of humber-mâché.

They will. Your tests have no rules, no control and no photos. Ever.

There was a time when I was a reliable source, being deemed too stoopid to be able to produce results that disagreed with Booger's master thesis. When the inevitable happened and physics was yet again proven during my tests, Booger was caught flat-footed and his only defense was that I managed to pull a fast one on him.

On the contrary. I rejected your fan tests, even though they were favorable to me. It could well have been that by some means of careless control, you nobbled your own cart.

That quickly changed to me somehow being able to bend the laws of physics to my will instead, that being a much lesser evil than little ol' mender tricking and outsmarting the mighty Booger so masterfully that he was speechless (and postless) for almost two days!

Fantasy.

You have not posted a reply to this:
If a simple cart is held by hand on the belt, the force of the rolling resistance is the drag. However, if held at an angle to the belt, such that the wheels are no longer in line with the belt, then the friction becomes more and more the higher static value, and the cart may be eventually taken from the hand.
The obvious extreme being 90 degrees to the belt.
The cart shows no such dependency on the angle, because it is not rolling, but sliding, so the coefficient of friction remains largely independent of angle. So how do you account for that?

Oh, I made little video. In the last scene in the street, notice the rancor in JB's voice, and Spork's irritation at having to try again. Selective outcome. Ignore the failures and wait until the wind picks up. A mirror of the NALSA trial. They know it doesn't work, but are sure it does. Control will fix that little charade.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2899/945h.mp4

 

[I Ratant]

Enjoy your privileged status for as long as you can, I Ratant; once your tests no longer support Booger, you and your tests will be the object of his scorn and be eligible to usage only when given a thick covering of humber-mâché.

There was a time when I was a reliable source, being deemed too stoopid to be able to produce results that disagreed with Booger's master thesis. When the inevitable happened and physics was yet again proven during my tests, Booger was caught flat-footed and his only defense was that I managed to pull a fast one on him.

That quickly changed to me somehow being able to bend the laws of physics to my will instead, that being a much lesser evil than little ol' mender tricking and outsmarting the mighty Booger so masterfully that he was speechless (and postless) for almost two days!

.
When humber posted "I was lying about having a cart", I banished him to the humberverse. There aren't any migras on the Internet, so he can still post. All of us can.
But...................................................................
Nothing can be accomplished by actual lying; what are usually jumped on as lies here seem to be opinions counter to those of the accuser.
I consider childish and ignorant responses that use that word.
If there's a difference in opinion, post the *********** thing! What is being differed with, and why! Jesus, is that so difficult?
If the results are still irreconcilable differences, well, ****, that's life.
The inadequate "agree to disagree" can be invoked, without questioning the opposing party's mental state, as is all too common, and really is common.

 

[I Ratant]

They will. Your tests have no rules, no control and no photos. Ever.


On the contrary. I rejected your fan tests, even though they were favorable to me. It could well have been that by some means of careless control, you nobbled your own cart.


Fantasy.

You have not posted a reply to this:
If a simple cart is held by hand on the belt, the force of the rolling resistance is the drag. However, if held at an angle to the belt, such that the wheels are no longer in line with the belt, then the friction becomes more and more the higher static value, and the cart may be eventually taken from the hand.
The obvious extreme being 90 degrees to the belt.
The cart shows no such dependency on the angle, because it is not rolling, but sliding, so the coefficient of friction remains largely independent of angle. So how do you account for that?

Oh, I made little video. In the last scene in the street, notice the rancor in JB's voice, and Spork's irritation at having to try again. Selective outcome. Ignore the failures and wait until the wind picks up. A mirror of the NALSA trial. They know it doesn't work, but are sure it does. Control will fix that little charade.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2899/945h.mp4

.
I'd have put some marks on the belt on the treadmill to show which direction it was moving.
I suggested that to the Mythbusters also, when they were treadmilling the airplane.
And the direction of rotation of the fan is of no consequence. It's the prop's rotation that should be noted. (just a nomenclature pedant, I am)

 

[Subduction Zone]

humber, I watched your edited video until you made your first absolutely clear lie. The rest of it was filled with your incompetence to understand how the cart works. Your lie was the claim that the cart is powered by the relative headwind that it runs into at greater than wind speed. You are the only one claiming that. It does not matter how many times you repeat that lie people will always be around to correct you. Just as I will always be around to remind you that you ran away from the treadmill debate when you lost it.

 

[CORed]

humber, I watched your edited video until you made your first absolutely clear lie. The rest of it was filled with your incompetence to understand how the cart works. Your lie was the claim that the cart is powered by the relative headwind that it runs into at greater than wind speed. You are the only one claiming that. It does not matter how many times you repeat that lie people will always be around to correct you. Just as I will always be around to remind you that you ran away from the treadmill debate when you lost it.

It should also be noted that you can't reliably determine direction of rotation from a video. If the prop or wheel makes more than half a revolution between frames, it will look like it's rotating the opposite direction of the true rotation. I suspect this is what is happening in his excerpt from the outdoor video from spork and JB where he keeps claiming the rotation reversed.

 

[humber]

It should also be noted that you can't reliably determine direction of rotation from a video. If the prop or wheel makes more than half a revolution between frames, it will look like it's rotating the opposite direction of the true rotation. I suspect this is what is happening in his excerpt from the outdoor video from spork and JB where he keeps claiming the rotation reversed.

No. When slow, the prop speed is below the aliasing frequency produced by the camera's sampling rate. That is calculable from the distance per turn.
The stalling is there, and neither the wheel or the prop turn.

It is simply not turning fast enough from that state to make the half turn that would produce the "wagon wheel effect".
The remainder of the video, shows that if the gearing works to prevent backward motion, ( not that it does) then it works against the cart above WS. It goes backwards when on the ground, but the wheels turn forwards when in the air in front of the fan. A mirror of the tailwind state.

 

[humber]

.
When humber posted "I was lying about having a cart", I banished him to the humberverse. There aren't any migras on the Internet, so he can still post. All of us can.

Did I say that to you, I Ratant?
There have been others who claimed to have carts, but didn't. Sock-puppets,
email addresses passed on and posted ( by Mender), PM's posted ( by Spork) etc. Not by me, though. I take all of that as part of the process. It always gets worse when the cart is in trouble.

 

[I Ratant]

Did I say that to you, I Ratant?
....

.
This is a public forum.
Everyone can read all the messages.
I've also seen it publicly posted that propellors are not rotating wings.
Also disregardable as a technical fact.

 

[humber]

.
This is a public forum.
Everyone can read all the messages.
I've also seen it publicly posted that propellors are not rotating wings.
Also disregardable as a technical fact.

But I didn't say to you that you were lying about having a cart?

The majority of references will say it's a rotating airfoil, but they are but one means of transferring momentum to the air. The is the underlying principle.

 

[CORed]

No. When slow, the prop speed is below the aliasing frequency produced by the camera's sampling rate. That is calculable from the distance per turn.

Then show us your calculations.

The stalling is there, and neither the wheel or the prop turn.

It is simply not turning fast enough from that state to make the half turn that would produce the "wagon wheel effect".
The remainder of the video, shows that if the gearing works to prevent backward motion, ( not that it does) then it works against the cart above WS. It goes backwards when on the ground, but the wheels turn forwards when in the air in front of the fan. A mirror of the tailwind state.

We all know that the prop turns the opposite direction when freewheeling from the direction it turns when the cart is moving forward and the prop is driven by the wheel. You are the only one who thinks this somehow proves it can't work. Your only basis for that assertion is that you don't understand how the cart works.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The remainder of the video, shows that if the gearing works to prevent backward motion, ( not that it does) then it works against the cart above WS. It goes backwards when on the ground, but the wheels turn forwards when in the air in front of the fan. A mirror of the tailwind state.

If I understand what you are trying to say here (and sadly there's no guarantee of that) then you are mistaken to say the transition to the prop blades experiencing a headwind occurs at windspeed. Due to the pitch of the propeller and its rotation, that transition would only occur when the prop blade no longer has a positive angle of attack. That does indeed constrain the top speed the prop can support at a given pitch but, for any positive pitch angle, that is higher than windspeed.

 

[CORed]

They will. Your tests have no rules, no control and no photos. Ever.


On the contrary. I rejected your fan tests, even though they were favorable to me. It could well have been that by some means of careless control, you nobbled your own cart.


Fantasy.

You have not posted a reply to this:
If a simple cart is held by hand on the belt, the force of the rolling resistance is the drag. However, if held at an angle to the belt, such that the wheels are no longer in line with the belt, then the friction becomes more and more the higher static value, and the cart may be eventually taken from the hand.
The obvious extreme being 90 degrees to the belt.
The cart shows no such dependency on the angle, because it is not rolling, but sliding, so the coefficient of friction remains largely independent of angle. So how do you account for that?

How did you measure the force for the cart in line with the belt vs. the cart at an angle?
So, the cart is on the belt with the belt moving, sliding merrily along, stationary relative to the air. Why is that prop spinning?

It appears that humber has abandoned his "stored angular momentum" hypothesis(where a prop spinning in air somehow works as a flywheel) and returned to the equally laughable, "the cart is sliding" hypothesis for explaining the behavior of the cart on the treadmill.

The two hypotheses are, of course mutually exclusive, but both have the neat feature of utterly failing to explain the ability of the cart to hold its position on the treadmill, let alone explain its demonstrated ability to move against the belt. The humberverse is not only stranger than we imagine, but stranger than we (except for humber) can imagine.

Oh, I made little video. In the last scene in the street, notice the rancor in JB's voice, and Spork's irritation at having to try again. Selective outcome. Ignore the failures and wait until the wind picks up. A mirror of the NALSA trial. They know it doesn't work, but are sure it does. Control will fix that little charade.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2899/945h.mp4

 

[humber]

If I understand what you are trying to say here (and sadly there's no guarantee of that) then you are mistaken to say the transition to the prop blades experiencing a headwind occurs at windspeed.

I am saying that the entire claim is BS. The reason the BB does not go upwind from rest, is that the prop is geared up. The large sprocket is on the prop, and the small one on the axle. If is that even made 1:1, cart goes backwards. Done it. 20mm diameter pulley on the prop, and 30 on the axle. Always goes towards the fan.
It is blown downwind as a tacking sail cart. The headwind does not drive the cart via the prop in any way. It's just funny that the video shows it fail its own hypothesis: twice.

Due to the pitch of the propeller and its rotation, that transition would only occur when the prop blade no longer has a positive angle of attack. That does indeed constrain the top speed the prop can support at a given pitch but, for any positive pitch angle, that is higher than windspeed.

Nothing to do with it. Confabulated nonsense.

 

[humber]

Then show us your calculations.

Take it or leave it. You are quite sure of the way the prop turns when before the fan. There are more ways than one to be sure of which way it is turning.
Aliasing, should it be a problem, is not the end of the road.

We all know that the prop turns the opposite direction when freewheeling from the direction it turns when the cart is moving forward and the prop is driven by the wheel. You are the only one who thinks this somehow proves it can't work. Your only basis for that assertion is that you don't understand how the cart works.

It gets blown downwind as a sail cart, and would do so if towed above WS ddw
It's a tacking sail-cart sold as a ddw cart. It's a phony.

 

[Llyricist]

It's a tacking sail-cart

You have the hyphen in the wrong place, it should be "tacking-sail cart".

 

[I Ratant]

Interesting stuff off the Internet....

 

[I Ratant]

New thingy.
The monofilament cord didn't have enough roughness to drive the prop without excessive load on the prop shaft.
I'm switching back to mylar thread.
And I've aligned the two drive pulleys to lessen the load on the prop shaft.

 

[CORed]

No. When slow, the prop speed is below the aliasing frequency produced by the camera's sampling rate. That is calculable from the distance per turn.
The stalling is there, and neither the wheel or the prop turn.

It is simply not turning fast enough from that state to make the half turn that would produce the "wagon wheel effect".
The remainder of the video, shows that if the gearing works to prevent backward motion, ( not that it does) then it works against the cart above WS. It goes backwards when on the ground, but the wheels turn forwards when in the air in front of the fan. A mirror of the tailwind state.

Okay, looking at that video agin, I think the rotation is slow enough that the video is representing the rotation correctly. What it appears is happening, is that the wheels slip a bit, and the prop is turned by the wind, then the wheels catch and it starts spinning it the other way. Nothing too surprising.