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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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You find a fault in the math, that says I am wrong.

The cotton reel has nothing to do with the cart, which that is a sham because the trail evidence says so.
But it is embarrassing for the Illuminati if they can be shown to make such basic errors.

Only the maths? There's no practical demonstration that would cause you to revise your thinking?

ETA - To rephrase, what would make you believe that you've got the maths wrong?
 
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Actually no. The force required to pull the reel up with the wound thread (or hold it in place) is greater than the force required to pull it up (or hold it in place) with the hook. This is assuming all movement speeds are slow, so angular momentum can be disregarded. Using the wound thread, you apply more force (you have to pull harder) over a shorter distance (the reel moves faster than the thread so you only have to pull the thread a shorter distance than the reel moves). Using the hook, you apply less force but you have to pull it a greater distance, equal to the distance the reel moves. The work done on the reel ends up the same either way.





Here you go:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/130124926e74b16479.jpg[/qimg]

Here's the reel, being pulled to the right by the wound thread. This time a parachute in the wind, the one that's fully unfurled, is providing the pull. The wind is blowing left to right.

The reel works the same as in your own tests: it "winds up" the line as it rolls left to right. This means the parachute is being pulled closer to the reel as it moves. By the time it reaches the reel, the next parachute will be unfurling at the right end, to continue to provide pull.

Now imagine that the wind is pushing the parachute at a healthy fraction of the wind speed (say, 50% of wind speed). That means the whole thing has to be pretty efficient, the chutes have to be large (to generate a lot of force from the wind) while the contraption has to be light with minimum drag. That would be a difficult engineering challenge but there's no question it's possible in principle. The parachute cannot actually reach wind speed; moving downwind at 50% of the wind speed it's "feeling" only half the wind speed that it would if it were stationary. So the faster it goes the less wind it feels and the more drag it has to overcome to pull the cart, so it's probably not going to get much better. It -- keep in mind that by "it" we're talking about the parachute -- will certainly not be able to reach wind speed, let alone exceed it.

But, as you know from your experiments with the reel, if the parachute is pulling the line left to right at a certain speed relative to the ground, the reel is rolling faster than that. The particular reel pictured moves about three times as fast as the "thread" pulling it. Relative to the ground, the parachute is moving left to right at half wind speed, so the reel -- and therefore the cart frame -- is moving three times that speed, which is 1.5 times wind speed. In other words, downwind, faster than the wind.

Remember, the parachute is moving right to left at half wind speed, so it's moving left to right (toward the reel) relative to the cart.

Here's an improved model:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/13012493204e1d7668.jpg[/qimg]

Not much different here; again, the unfurled chutes across the top are moving downwind (left to right) at less than wind speed, the cart is moving left to right faster than the parachutes and the wind, so the parachutes are moving right to left relative to the cart; they're being wound toward the top left wheel. This model is very much like the "Under the Ruler Faster Than The Ruler" in the video. The parachutes are equivalent to the top of the large black wheel. The wind is the ruler. The cart moves under the wind, faster than the wind, while the parachutes move slower than the wind allowing the wind to continue to push them.

The Blackbird works differently. Instead of parachutes moving counter to the cart's movement so as to continue to be pushed by the wind when the cart goes faster than the wind, the Blackbird has a propeller. The propeller surfaces' positions, along the axis of the cart's movement, sweep counter to the cart's movement so as to continue to be pushed by the wind when the cart goes faster than the wind.

Respectfully,
Myriad
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I've seen the PMM chutes before, but, there are two separate shafts involved.
The wheel I use has two separate diameter reels, but they are not independent. The angular motion is identical on each with rotation, although the distance traveled varies depending on the pull location.
The downwind carts with the props use two separate shafts, geared together.
That's the easy part.
Explaining why the propellor assists in driving the drive wheels, that's the stinky part. :)
 
This is an entirely spurious objection. The acceleration of my car is also limited by friction. That does not make it useless.

But your car does not lose KE as result.
If the wheel is turning CW, then the applied force will act against the wheel.
When that is large enough, the wheel will spin, and lose KE against the ground as work of friction. If that continues, it will lose all of it and gain it in the CCW direction.

Take a look at the earlier diagram and the equations. Fd is bipolar; it works in either direction, according to conditions.

Now I do need the monitor...

Net force to the right;
F - Fd = Fmb( b-a)/(I + mb^2)

Moment to the right;
BF - at = IT(b-a)/(I + mb^2)

When both are positive the reel rolls to the right (CW). Towards the force F.

As I have said, and which may be confirmed by any reference, rolling friction serves to decelerate the wheel. It will be CCW in this case so, in the same direction as the applied force: both are positive.

That is the same as a car. Braking or friction to the surface, applies a force
CCW to a CW wheel.

But a car's engine does not apply CCW torque. The "under" reel does. That is what causes the reel to move away from the hand, so turns CCW.

Whether the reel moves away from, or towards the hand, depends on the friction that opposes the "natural" CCW mode. It's a balancing act.
There is a third state where the angular forces "cancel" and the reel slides rather that rolls.
Not good. A waste of time.
 
Only the maths? There's no practical demonstration that would cause you to revise your thinking?

ETA - To rephrase, what would make you believe that you've got the maths wrong?

Pointing to the mistake.
Your mistake is not to see that the reel's behavior is not as obvious as you think. Experiment will simply confirm the error, and it has.
 
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I've seen the PMM chutes before, but, there are two separate shafts involved.
The wheel I use has two separate diameter reels, but they are not independent. The angular motion is identical on each with rotation, although the distance traveled varies depending on the pull location.
The downwind carts with the props use two separate shafts, geared together.
That's the easy part.
Explaining why the propellor assists in driving the drive wheels, that's the stinky part. :)

I would love to here from somebody new what is so "stinky" about it. I honestly can't really understand anymore.

The prop is producing thrust / lift because the airfoils are on a continuous spiraling downwind tack. Why isn't that the end of it?

Tacking is understood. Props are understood. Gearing the wheels so as to give them leverage is understood by all but Humber. What is missing.

I am not saying I would have thought of it but once it has been explained 100 times or so, its time to get it.
 
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Right, I Ratant. You do experiments, take measurements, and try other variants. Despite any vested interest in the cart, you do that, because you want to know. Carteers don't.

The video was complete, and with what I saw as proof, but it's going to take more than that to show it. Carteers are more interested in the "so there" of a video, than they are of its content. Spork often shoots himself in the foot that way, but Carteers never notice. It's all down to the sophistication of the audience.

I posted about the angle of the string, and how that influences the direction in which the reel may roll. Sometimes, the moments producing the rotation either way, are equal, so the reel slides. In practice, the spool will tend to wobble a bit about the finite contact point with the surface.
The incline changes that balance, and moves the contact point away from directly under the centre of the reel.

The twist is that the incline introduces a known amount of work.
The work against gravity is always the same, no matter how the reel is moved. The diameters change the force seen at the hand and at the surface, so are gears. Work = F*d, so doubling the force means that the same amount of work is done over half the distance,so, hey presto, the hand moves half of the un-geared case. It's a bit foolish to see that as the reel moving "twice as fast".
Power = work/time. If you do the same work in half the time, then you need twice the power. If you have that, you don't need the gears.

Gears "trade force for velocity" but there is always a corresponding change in the amount of work that can be done over the same time.
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With the thread pulling the reel horizontally or up the incline, the thread will either wind off or onto the spool, and the reel move in the direction of the pull.
With the thread pulling vertically on the spool, the spool will climb the incline, the thread pulling up on the spool's "down-incline" side, and the spool will move down the incline..or the flat..spooling off the reel both times, with the reel reversed. No difference in the amount of thread spooling off.
It's the classic unspooling of the thread when the spool is dropped on the floor. The spool rolls one way or the other, unspooling thread all over the rug.
But so what.
Other than the "golly-willikers-Mr. Science" of the thread unspooling or spooling when pulling the reel along a surface, the relevance to the drive wheels and propellor on separate shafts providing motion is missing.
 
I will tell you what I told others so long ago. I do not use the PC and keyboard very much, but mostly transfer stuff from my hand-held keyboard.

It is wireless, and based on a former device called the Micro-writer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter

It of course smaller, but has no display. I pick it up and put it down, typing as I go hither and aboooot. Often I make typos, and don't see them until I eventually read the screen. That annoys me, so sometimes I will edit several times.
Your remarks suggests that I should, and that you have little else to offer, Modified.

I'm just wondering if you're psychologically capable of admitting you're wrong in any way. Can you just say "Yes, I made a typo" or "Yes, I was wrong, the spool moves faster than the thread" without adding excuses?
 
But so what.
Other than the "golly-willikers-Mr. Science" of the thread unspooling or spooling when pulling the reel along a surface, the relevance to the drive wheels and propellor on separate shafts providing motion is missing.

It doesn't matter that they are on separate shafts; those shafts are geared together. The wheels on the drfttr cart are on separate shafts, but the principle is the same.
 
I would love to here from somebody new what is so "stinky" about it. I honestly can't really understand anymore.

The prop is producing thrust / lift because the airfoils are on a continuous spiraling downwind tack. Why isn't that the end of it?

Tacking is understood. Props are understood. Gearing the wheels so as to give them leverage is understood by all but Humber. What is missing.

I am not saying I would have thought of it but once it has been explained 100 times or so, its time to get it.
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It's non-intuitive. :)
One expects a propellor to move upwind.
And on airplanes they do.
But they aren't geared to the plane's wheels, the two systems are independent.
That's what trapped the treadmill guys, not recognizing the independence which permits the plane to move ahead.
I like this one... I'd like to see it with steering to change direction... downwind to upwind..
Without that, it's just a toy that illustrates a useless feature.
 

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The reel is limited in principle, and that limit can only be extended by creating more friction, than any of the alternatives.

You appear to be arguing that BB's top speed is limited by the available traction between its wheels and the ground, and that "any of the alternatives" could go faster.

But BB can travel at least 2.8 x windspeed. Which "alternatives" do you have in mind which can do that?

In any case, it doesn't matter if an alternative design can go even faster. The point of the excercise was to demonstrate the principle of outrunning the wind, which it emphatically did.
 
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It's non-intuitive. :)
One expects a propellor to move upwind.
And on airplanes they do.
But they aren't geared to the plane's wheels, the two systems are independent.
That's what trapped the treadmill guys, not recognizing the independence which permits the plane to move ahead.
I like this one... I'd like to see it with steering to change direction... downwind to upwind..
Without that, it's just a toy that illustrates a useless feature.

I expect this his been posted here before. I think it is the best video made on the subject. Just in case it hasn't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGRFb8yNtBo
 
<lots of stuff about friction and inertia>
Not good. A waste of time.

All you appear to be saying is that BB's acceleration is limited by the traction of its wheels. With the modest power available from the wind, that really is not a significant limiting factor.

If you think otherwise, feel free to point to any videos of BB doing burnouts.
 
Pointing to the mistake.
Your mistake is not to see that the reel's behavior is not as obvious as you think. Experiment will simply confirm the error, and it has.

What mistake? I have made no statements about the whole thing.

I just think that a demonstration of open mindedness is required on your part and you need to state what will make you change your mind. Perhaps your maths is wrong (it happens to the best, Newton's maths was wrong).

The maths merely models the situation, it isn't the situation. I would like you to describe what physical demonstration you would accept as proof that it is possible to build the cart described..
 
What mistake? I have made no statements about the whole thing.

I just think that a demonstration of open mindedness is required on your part and you need to state what will make you change your mind. Perhaps your maths is wrong (it happens to the best, Newton's maths was wrong).

The maths merely models the situation, it isn't the situation. I would like you to describe what physical demonstration you would accept as proof that it is possible to build the cart described..

That's easy. There is no proof Humber would except. None. Ever.

ETA: I can almost sympathize with the fact that it is now impossible for Humber to admit he was wrong. Put yourself in his shoes if you can. He has written 7 and 3/4 million words (conservatively) arguing against the possibility that the cart is what it is. It is not very hard to imagine being wrong after that would drive even a quite sane person insane.
 
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That's easy. There is no proof Humber would except. None. Ever.

That's my concern. I'm hoping to be porved wrong and that a short, simple explaination will be forthcoming explaining what humber would accept as a demonstration that he (or she?) is wrong.
 
What mistake? I have made no statements about the whole thing.
You are saying that the experiments confirm that it works. I say it is not a viable idea.

I just think that a demonstration of open mindedness is required on your part and you need to state what will make you change your mind. Perhaps your maths is wrong (it happens to the best, Newton's maths was wrong).
But it is not good enough to say it "could be wrong" and there are no real-world examples that contradict it, let alone any actual mistake.
Why should I change? I can get the same results but not reach the same concluson about the cart or the reel in general.
Take a look at the videos "Prop or Turbine" and "The Harold Bricer Test"

In the former, that fan barely moves the cart, but in the latter, that same fan at a greater distance, blows the cart off the belt. That says a lot about how low the frictions to the belt is. That's how the TM works. It is barely in contact, because of an state induced by holding the cart, so priming it to take up a "latched state". It runs on little energy, so makes little demand of the belt, so very low drag from the belt. Those videos are contradictory. I estimated the force to the belt by observing its motion and timing it by frame stepping the video. The answer is 0.04N. Mender measured that, and came very close to the same value.

The maths merely models the situation, it isn't the situation. I would like you to describe what physical demonstration you would accept as proof that it is possible to build the cart described..

Tug on the thread. It may send the reel backwards. That never happens to a car. Small scale needs care.
 
I expect this his been posted here before. I think it is the best video made on the subject. Just in case it hasn't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGRFb8yNtBo
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I don't like CGI.
Too easy to not include all the problems the real world stuff throws at you.
The problems with this downwind stuff appear to be how does the gearing between the wheels and the prop affect the motion, which CGI can help explain, but the acrimony about the actual course of the vehicle in the wind needs more illustrative devices to show the wind direction at the cart.. like foam popcorn pellets floating along, and tell-tale streamers not connected to the cart.
With the cart overtaking the pellets, that shows the relative motion, but it has to be real world, not CGI.
And steering through a field of tell-tale streamers also.
 
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