Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[humber]

I've just viewed the Jenkins video.

You are mistaken.

That is not a streamer attached to the front aerial, it is (probably) a rigid aerial component and does not swivel at all through the entire run.
It is not a streamer.

Oh, yeah There's a still of it somewhere. funny how you did not remark on that until you looked at the video.

That device, whatever it may be, shows how easily a streamer could be manipulated.

And the vane that jumps about every time the camera just happens to pan, or all of the time? And the wind noise in the mic? That's not there either.

Care to discuss the Run 2 video that I was actually talking about, that does show the three red/orange streamers?

No, I prefer the chart that says you have nothing,
I have already told you the streamers are a sham. Oddly, you will not find pon-pons with a large drag coefficient, and no means of showing direction because they are flexible and dissipative, amongst the tools used my Meteorologists.
However, wonks will make all sorts of excuses to make sure a vane is not fitted to the cart.

And the cotton reel. I Ratant kindly conducted my hook suggestion. It moves as far as the reel.
Using a thread, means that you see the amount of thread that passes over the inner reel as it unwinds. Don't buy any $13 bills, OK?

 

[EHocking]

Oh, yeah. And the vane does not jump about every time the camera just happens to pan?

No it doesn't, because it is probably this component, from their photo site.

I have already told you the streamers are a sham.

An assertion that you have not backed up.
Everyone else viewing the Run 2 video can see the streamers indicating relative wind distance at the cart, before and during the run.

Odlly, you will not find pon-pons with a large drag coefficient and no means of showing direction because they are dissipative, amongst the tool used my Meteorologists.

Strawman. We're not discussing pom-poms or meteorology, but yachts. Windsocks and weathervanes are used, obviously quite impractical to use on a yacht.

However, wonks will make all sorts of excuses to make sure a vane is not fitted to the cart.

...that's why in the other video you can see streamers mounted on all the masts of the OTHER land yachts racing around in the background.

Used for indicating apparent wind direction.

 

[EHocking]

...On the front of the cart we have a fishing rod. On that rod we have a protractor of sorts facing aft. I has 5 rigid rods pointing at various angles. Above that protractor, we sometimes tie a piece of yarn. At the base of the fishing rod we mounted a video camera to show that piece of yarn with the protractor as a reference.

Heh. You must have posted while I was looking at your site for a photo of just that...

 

[humber]

Used for indicating apparent wind direction.

Yeah. Take a look at the end of this video the cart is turned may be 90 degrees, but you would not know that from the streamer.
http://vimeo.com/10476216

 

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by EHocking
Care to discuss the Run 2 video that I was actually talking about, that does show the three red/orange streamers?

No,

No. Because that would require you to address the evidence presented.

 

[humber]

The trial data says you have nothing, so you can bang on all you like about what you think you have. Falling for the cotton reel, seriously damages your authority.
Some zealots are incandescently desperate to save face.

 

[EHocking]

Yeah. Take a look at the end of this video the cart is turned may be 90 degrees, but you would not know that from the streamer.
http://vimeo.com/10476216

You've got to be kidding.

Both streamers mounted on the cross mast are perpendicular to the cross mast when the craft is pointing downwind and stationary (02:55min mark). At 03:18mins they rotate the craft through 90^o. The streamers do not change direction and both end up pointing parallel to the cross mast (03:29min).

 

[Jack by the hedge]

A piece of yarn, there or not, will not function as a vane, but follow the turbulence created by the pole.

Without an accurate indicator...

So the yarn will flutter a bit. Big deal.

Can you show that the turbulence created by the pole is not symmetrical either side of a line projected downwind of the pole, and would cause the yarn to indicate a wind direction that is offset, rather than fluttering symmetrically to either side of the true reading?

No. Of course you can't. Just like you can't conceive of a cotton reel rolling up a thread towards the hand that's pulling the thread.

Your objection is spurious straw-clutching.

 

[humber]

You've got to be kidding.

Both streamers mounted on the cross mast are perpendicular to the cross mast when the craft is pointing downwind and stationary (02:55min mark). At 03:18mins they rotate the craft through 90^o. The streamers do not change direction and both end up pointing parallel to the cross mast (03:29min).

Look between 3:12 and 3:28. The cart is turned maybe 60 degrees, but the streamer looks much the same.

 

[humber]

So the yarn will flutter a bit. Big deal.

Can you show that the turbulence created by the pole is not symmetrical either side of a line projected downwind of the pole, and would cause the yarn to indicate a wind direction that is offset, rather than fluttering symmetrically to either side of the true reading?

No. Of course you can't. Just like you can't conceive of a cotton reel rolling up a thread towards the hand that's pulling the thread.

Your objection is spurious straw-clutching.

The cotton reel shows that you have no clothes.
And asking rhetorical questions says you don't have the answer, but small diameter rods create the most turbulence of all profiles.
ETA:
And tell tales are weighted with a fixed mass. You can check that.
And averaging the wind direction is such a boner, as to make the trial worthless.

 

[Modified]

I am making the point about it being dynamic, because that is the underlying problem. It means amongst other things, that the length of the string does not matter, regardless of which way it goes. It will never work, no matter what.

Try again. You'll see that your are completely wrong. There is nothing dynamic about it. Once you pull the spool to a certain speed, it continues smoothly at that speed while you apply a steady pull. There is no "jerking" or "impulse" or whatever else you mean by "dynamic".

But last and definitely not least, how poor experimental control and assumption lead to errors and irrelevant outcomes.

There is no experimental control problem. You could argue that a ball released on a slope will not roll downhill, then when someone tries it shout "show me the math" and "poor experimental control", but you will quite obviously be wrong, just as you are now.

You should really forget about discussing the cart. You can't even reason correctly about a spool and a string, so for something more complex than that there is no hope.

 

[A.T.]

...

You could argue that a ball released on a slope will not roll downhill

Don't give him ideas.

then when someone tries it shout "show me the math" and "poor experimental control"

"Good experimental control" means for humber: Conditions that are impossible to achieve and partly nonsensical (self-contradicting). Humberphysics predictions are per definition not reproducible in the real world. That's why he doesn't even bother to make his own experiments to prove his point.

 

[humber]

Try again. You'll see that your are completely wrong. There is nothing dynamic about it. Once you pull the spool to a certain speed, it continues smoothly at that speed while you apply a steady pull. There is no "jerking" or "impulse" or whatever else you mean by "dynamic".

A simple mass has only linear momentum but a wheel has both linear and angular momentum. The two "gears" are on the same shaft, and that means they have the same AV. That means a lot for the matter of acceleration, but as none of you will address the math, there is no means of showing that.

But you have nothing but a mistaken notion. All that is happening is that the string is unwinding. So, in the over the top case, the hand will move further than the reel. In the under case, it winds onto the reel, so you all make the astonishing error, of seeing the hand go "slower" that implies the reel is moving "twice as fast".
But, there is no gain, no matter how you look at it. It's so silly as to be risible. There are many mechanisms, from a pantograph to a pair if scissors, where "one bit moves faster than the other" but have no connection or potential for >WS travel. It is a boyish idea. It's silly, but the dynamics make it even less practical than that.

There is no experimental control problem. You could argue that a ball released on a slope will not roll downhill, then when someone tries it shout "show me the math" and "poor experimental control", but you will quite obviously be wrong, just as you are now.
You should really forget about discussing the cart. You can't even reason correctly about a spool and a string, so for something more complex than that there is no hope.

The spool is not my error, Modified, but yours. In Carteerville, numbers of supporters means nothing, as you all drink from the same cup.

 

[EHocking]

Look between 3:12 and 3:28. The cart is turned maybe 60 degrees, but the streamer looks much the same.

So we're in agreement. The streamers show the wind direction relative to the cart, no matter which direction the cart is facing.

...http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21526&stc=1&d=1300971020

Could you make them any smaller? I can nearly make out some detail on them.

Let's try some larger photos.

At the 03:15min mark, just before the cart is picked up and turned.

Angle against the indicator arrows is only to show that I have not rotated them from this photo to the next photo.

Note the angle that the back axle and the length of the chassis makes.

At the 03:23min mark.

Note where the back axles are - 90^o to the original position.
Note the streamers are practically the same direction.

Just as you say. The streamers on the Blackbird cart are good indicators of relative wind direction.

Yeah. Take a look at the end of this video the cart is turned may be 90 degrees, but you would not know that from the streamer.

 

[humber]

There is no means of accurately telling the direction of the wind from cart, not even from a peive of yarn, and the other video shows that the streamer is less than useless, so how does the pilot know the ddw path? Ten degree accuracy? Twenty? How about 30?

I have animated the ten seconds of data that NALSA provided. Do you think even that would help? BTW, it's not the vane, but the calculated true wind direction. We won't know of the vane, because Spork refuses to hand over the data.

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/4558/dqs.mp4

 

[humber]

....

Pure fantasy. You have mistaken parallax for the angle of the streamer, and you can't calculate it without knowing much more than you do.
I know that, because you have even made the naive error of giving each streamer a different angle. They would be at the same angle to the bar.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The cotton reel shows that you have no clothes.

The cotton reel shows you have no grasp of basic mechanics.

 

[humber]

Give it up, you've been conned, by an office manager who calls himself Ziploc.

Major problems for the cotton reelers

1) The trial says the cart is at least 20 degrees off ddw
2) It's not steady-state
3) Average speed 12.5mph
4) Without push, 8.5mph
5) Distance traveled 0.41miles
6) No viable theory
7) No peer-reviewed support
8) No "tacking props" or "air levers" to be found in any text
9) Wind direction averaged. Totally wrong
10) Pilot has no means of keeping a ddw path.
11) Idiotic nonsense about torque of a Corvette
12) Data fiddling.

That record can be broken by a bucket.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

But you have nothing but a mistaken notion. All that is happening is that the string is unwinding. So, in the over the top case, the hand will move further than the reel. In the under case, it winds onto the reel, so you all make the astonishing error, of seeing the hand go "slower" that implies the reel is moving "twice as fast".

This is stundie material. Seriously. When we see the reel move twice as far as the hand did in the same time, we make the "astonishing error" of thinking the reel moved twice as fast?

What is the SI unit of stupidity, anyone?

 

[humber]

This is stundie material. Seriously. When we see the reel move twice as far as the hand did in the same time, we make the "astonishing error" of thinking the reel moved twice as fast?

What is the SI unit of stupidity, anyone?

The Carteer. Also a unit of density.

Don't give me that psycho-babble. If you could do the math, you would laugh at those who though it possible.

YOU HAVE NOTHING.