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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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humber's current argument is that:
A) the wind was not absolutely perfectly steady in speed and direction
B) We spent a lot of our time waiting for the best wind.

Clearly it's only possible to set a record if the wind is ALWAYS perfectly steady, and we're ALWAYS going directly downwind faster than the wind. It's not at all like every single other record in the world - in which you just have to do it once under proper conditions.

Then don't make claims that you can. As all are aware, the matter is about thermodynamics and not about cart speed. The onus is upon you to make sure that other effects from tacking and cross-winds are accounted for.

As I told you years ago, to measure the wind, you would need the appropriate instruments according to the conditions, and rapid data acquisition that would allow for statistical analysis. That is the way variable quantities are measured. In short, pitot tubes or acoustic sensors. Mechanical devices intended for fixed use are not even close. The cart could still demonstrate steady state once the input energy was adequately measured. To excuse that with a 40 degree margin is absurd, and quite obviously not remotely within the claim.

Most of the runs are push starts, suggesting that the wind is calm at that time, and it's natural to want to start with that, but I think it is also well understood amongst the general populace and kite fliers alike, that if the wind has just been stable, then it is likely that it will soon change again. Like the rain on a showery day. Time that by observation and experience, Mr Paraglider.

The rules say the wind measurements must be made between hub height and 5m above. Hub height was chosen. To exchange the vane on the cart because of a dubious and unsupported claim of 1mph bias, is a poor deal compared to physical and computational errors accompanying a chase vehicle.
I wonder how many more ways the nest could be feathered.
 
I don't know what you mean by Spork's law. Your post sounds like a child who strings words he has heard adults using together in a way that sounds impressive to other children but makes the grown ups smile. The 10% figure is precise in the sense that it is a nice round number that is positively , absolutely within tolerance. Let me use an analogy you might understand. If one planned to set a record which required temperatures below zero it would not make sense to set -.02 degrees Celsius as the maximum temperature when requiring temperature of at least -5.0 degrees Celsius would satisfy all but the crankiest of cranks. Everything about when tacking becomes consequential is completely known to everyone involved with NALSA. Although as you have been told before it always hinders the BB.

Heh, as to your analogy, wouldn't they at least have to explain why below zero temperatures were required in the first place? And no offence taken wrt my childlike stringing of words btw. :rolleyes: I play to my audience. ;)

Do you consider yourself one of the adults in this discussion? If so, glad I made you smile, as I'm now doing. :D
 
Heh, as to your analogy, wouldn't they at least have to explain why below zero temperatures were required in the first place? And no offence taken wrt my childlike stringing of words btw. :rolleyes: I play to my audience. ;)

Do you consider yourself one of the adults in this discussion? If so, glad I made you smile, as I'm now doing. :D

The response was a repetition of the claim, and an appeal to error margin, and not theoretical limits.
But, NALSA made comparisons with craft the can achieve 5-7 times WS, but only after tacking and jibing, and have the appropriate sail area to do that. Too much is not good, because the drag limits the final speed, though low speed acceleration will suffer.
A more valid comparison, would be between a sail cart that was designed and set up to achieve a maximum speed at the same initial angle to the wind, and with no jibing, nor concerns with the rate of acceleration. Perhaps a small cart like that could run on a net force of 32N, and even closer than 10 degrees. But, of course, the BB does not come close to that.
 
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Okay, just for the possible entertainment value, though I'm afraid it will be more sad than funny, here is one of the four times I referred to before:

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Fun facts:
Duration: 20.6 Seconds, All within 10 degrees deviation from DDW
Starting Speed: 27.5 MPH
Ending Speed: 43.7 MPH
Average Acceleration: 0.35 m/s2Starting Wind Speed Multiple: 1.4
Ending Wind Speed Multiple: 2.0
Minimum Wind Speed: 17 MPH
Maximum Wind Speed: 21.8 MPH

Last 10 seconds:

Average Wind Speed Multiple: 1.9
Average Deviation From DDW: -0.94 Degrees
Average ABS Deviation (since there is a case to be made to use it in this circumstance): 3.06 Degrees
RMS Deviation (for the cranks): 3.62 Degrees
Starting Speed: 34.5 MPH
Ending Speed: 43.7 MPH
Average Acceleration: 0.41 m/s2
 

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Llyricist, you did not do the proper humber transmogrifications.

He can do those well enough himself, expect a chart that shows the true wind direction and the claim that the x axis represents 0 DDW, and everything that happened before and after that period as if it were at all relevant.... etc. etc.
 
He can do those well enough himself, expect a chart that shows the true wind direction and the claim that the x axis represents 0 DDW, and everything that happened before and after that period as if it were at all relevant.... etc. etc.

Why do posts that trumpet "fun fact" always fall flat on their face?


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Once humber gets something wrong it is written in stone for him, no matter how it is explained to him. It is incredible that he cannot understand why the direction of travel of a motionless vehicle will always give you wildly varying data with a GPS unit. And it is hilarious to see him try to apply this to the cart in the wind.
 
The problem, basically, is that while the force of the air on the propeller is the same as the force on the propeller of the air, the speed of the air differs from the speed of the propeller (both relative to the ground). So, somehow, the work done by the air on the propeller differs from the work done on the propeller by the air. (Probably, I'm not saying that right. Because I don't yet understand it properly.) And the difference is the engine power of the propeller, which we get "for free".

Ok, we need to distinguish between two different speeds, each of which might be called "the speed of the propeller". On the one hand, the propeller is attached to the cart, so "the speed of the propeller" could simply mean the speed of the cart. This is what I referred to above as "the speed of the propeller". On the other hand, the propeller is angled, and it's spinning, so that a fixed bit of air in contact with it slides along the propeller and gets pushed backward relative to the cart. The speed, relative to the ground, of this bit of air could also be called "the speed of the propeller", because, after all, it's in continual contact with the propeller, so the speed of the two must be the same.

What I called, in my quoted post, "the work done by the air on the propeller" used the latter, slower, 'speed of the propeller' which equals the speed of the air in contact with it, while what I called "the work done on the propeller by the air" used the former, faster, 'speed of the propeller' which equals the speed of the cart.

Let's call the slower speed "the speed of the propeller", and the faster speed "the speed of the cart".

Then, the work done by the air on the propeller (or on the propeller by the air; these are now identical) is the force of the air on the propeller, namely, 156 N, times the speed of the air at the propeller (or the speed of the propeller; these are now identical), namely, 5.9 m/s. The product is 920.4 W.

The work done on the cart is (156 N)(9 m/s) = 1404 J per second. However, this work should not be thought of as being done by the air on the cart, but rather by the propeller on the cart, because the air is moving slower than 9 m/s and acts on the cart only indirectly, via the propeller. The cart, on the other hand, and the part of the propeller in contact with the cart, namely, the hub, are moving at 9 m/s, and that interface is where the work on the cart is done.

But this is not the only work that the propeller does on the cart. That is just the work due to the forward force of the propeller on the cart, which tends to speed it up. The propeller, besides being forced forward by the air, also experiences a torque from the air tending to slow its rotation. This torque, transferred through the chain to the wheels rolling on the ground, tends to slow the cart. Therefore, this power (i.e., the product of the propeller's angular speed and the torque on the propeller from the air) is negative, and must be subtracted from the 1404 J per second to get the net work done on the cart per second by the propeller, which should equal the energy lost by the air per second, because the power transferred to the cart from the propeller comes ultimately from the air.

But we don't want to subtract too much. (That would make it seem as though the cart needed less energy from the air than it really does.) The actual torque on the propeller includes a portion due to rotational losses, to cover which does require energy from the air. So, we subtract the power that would be transferred through an ideal propeller which has no rotational losses. This is given by equation (4) here, and equals, in our case, (156 N)(2 m/s + 1.1 m/s) = 483.6 W.

And, sure enough, 1404 W - 483.6 W does equal 920.4 W.

What's most confusing about this whole business, I think, is that, apparently, some of the forces acting to slow the cart, namely rolling resistance and air resistance and friction in the chain, increase the need for energy from the air, while other forces acting to slow the cart, namely the backward force on the wheels due their spinning the propeller, reduce the need for energy from the air.

I have the feeling that I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but that's the way it seems at first glance anyway.

I guess it depends on which direction we start from. If we start from zero, and add energy requirements, we need to add the energy required to overcome rolling resistance and air resistance and chain friction. And also the energy required to spin the propeller. But if we start with the (156 N)(9 m/s) = 1404 J of work done on the cart per second, we need to subtract the energy required to spin the propeller. This must mean that somehow the 1404 J counts that energy twice!

Well, that was rambling enough. I will stop now and think about this yet some more.
 
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LMAO, that is actually sad enough to be funny.

Sure it is. Best ddw cart in 100 degree changing winds..and so much more. Is your excel sheet "live" LLrycist, so that the averages can be recalculated as you truncate the data? Put the formula in did you?
 
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There are no averages in the data I graphed.

And averages I posted I calculated myself.
 
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There are no averages in the data I graphed.

And averages I posted I calculated myself.

That's mistake number one, but that's for the report.
The wind changes by 100 degrees and the cart does not, so not at all ddw.

The other is not to notice the connection between the vane the calculated GPS heading.
 
Once humber gets something wrong it is written in stone for him, no matter how it is explained to him.

Almost always true - but every once in a long while he says something so unbelievably obviously wrong that even he can see it after enough people point it out. For those occasions he reserves the "you fell for it" play.
 
Almost always true - but every once in a long while he says something so unbelievably obviously wrong that even he can see it after enough people point it out. For those occasions he reserves the "you fell for it" play.

You're a clever boy Sporky. You think it's OK for the GPS heading calculation, to output instant changes of 350 degrees, because it is slowing. Is that right?

ETA: And the cart GPS too. On the right. It's your data. I just plotted it.

Not that it matters that much, but that you don't see the consequences.

Anyway, the CV says the wind changes by more than 100 degrees, and that you hope to select a small portion of the general trend, to be ddw?
I wonder if that is not a habit?

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