Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[humber]

Gliders are the most efficient aircraft made. The resultent vector from their reaction is ALWAYS in opposition to their direction of flight, or else they could stay up forever!!

The cart is not a glider. It is not a blimp. How it works is irrelevant.
The topic is the trial, and that is not valid. The data has been tampered with to hide the changing winds. Averaging of direction is an invalid method and the result of the contestant having too much influence upon the rules.
It is not ddw, not steady-state, so nothing has been proven.
What there is, contradicts the TM and the theory. One or all are false,
One is enough.
The Ames engineer used by Spork to answer for him, and to reflect questions about the cart has said
"One other possibility is worth discussing — that it could be the time-variation of the wind direction, rather than simply the fact that the wind is not DDW."
The wind direction changes over time, for 90% of the trial. Invalid result.
I don't have to accept the low standards of the Carteer.

 

[Michael C]

Dr. Paul J. Camp Physics Department Spelman College: I'm happy to be quoted by name on this issue by anyone who wishes to do so. The treadmill/non-treadmill issue is entirely one of reference frames and physical law is not dependent on reference frame choice. . . I believe it is not just a different reference frame but in fact a different experiment but that doesn't matter. Personally, I would just bag it.

If Dr. Camp really said that, he is badly mistaken. The treadmill provides by far the best illustration of DDWFTTW.

In an exchange of emails with a certain "Chris", Camp showed that he thought the treadmill argument considers the treadmill belt to be equivalent to the air:

Camp:

The treadmill experiment is in fact not equivalent. I said this to Mr. name deleted and clarified it just a few minutes ago. The argument is that a frame in which the air is moving and the ground is not is equivalent to a frame in which the ground is moving and the air is not and we should be able to produce consistent explanations in both frames. That much is true. Further, the claim is made that the treadmill is a physical instantiation of the latter frame. That much is not true.

The reason is that in order for energy to be conserved, the speed of the air must decrease -- it must experience an acceleration. Air can do this because it is not a rigid body. If the vehicle pushes backward against the air coming forward, then it is decreasing the air speed (and also compressing the air though not by much).

A treadmill, however, is a rigid body (well, more or less). The treadmill speed is the same on both sides of the car whereas the wind speed is not. The treadmill is in fact an inertial frame whereas the air is an accelerated frame and those can never be connected by a Galilean transformation. To make the frames equivalent, the treadmill would have to slow down as it passes the car and it doesn't. That means additional energy is being supplied from somewhere and the source is obviously the treadmill motor.

The thing about acceleration is that though the exact value may be frame dependent, its existence is not. If there is an acceleration in one inertial frame, then there is an acceleration in every inertial frame. If the treadmill does not match the acceleration of the wind, then it is not an equivalent frame. ​

Camp doesn't understand that the correct equivalences are
Air ≡ Air
and
Treadmill belt ≡ Road
He says that the situations are not equivalent because "To make the frames equivalent, the treadmill would have to slow down as it passes the car and it doesn't." No: the treadmill is equivalent to the road, which doesn't slow down as it passes the cart. In both cases, it's the air that is slowed down (or speeded up, depending of the frame of reference) by the passage of the cart.

 

[Michael C]

I wonder if humber thinks we'll believe his lies if he repeats them often enough?

I think the point is that humber believes his own lies if he repeats them often enough.

 

[Modified]

So, basically, humber has created an impregnable but imaginary tree-fort where his demands for evidence can never be met. In this case a 100% stable wind in terms of direction and speed. This way he can not only protect his ego but actually magnify it.

And of course, such a condition would improve the performance of the cart.

 

[Modified]

He says that the situations are not equivalent because "To make the frames equivalent, the treadmill would have to slow down as it passes the car and it doesn't."

That's quite awful. You might argue that in a small room the cart may initiate a circulating air current, but that would of course hurt the performance.

 

[RossFW]

The cart is not a glider. It is not a blimp. How it works is irrelevant.

So, you've abandoned alternate explanations of how it works, and simply think the test wasn't good enough. As you don't know HOW it works, can you still state it would NOT work if your impossible, never happens "Exact" downwind condition was ever met?

 

[humber]

Your chance to explain the cart has passed long ago. Spork is not an engineer or scientist but an office manager. He does not have the skill to support his so-called theories.

A false result has been used to support what is a nonsense theory. Yevgheni has proven that the cart's energy budget can not be met. The electrical model does not work for the same reason, and also be cause it is mechanically flawed.

Steve Smith of NASA has offered alternative explanations for the cart's performance, mostly around the wind and its measurement, which closely mirror what I have said about the conditions of the test.

The result is due to chance, and unlikely to be be repeated by two successive runs.
The data has been deliberately filtered to hide the wind conditions Steve Smith says could explain the carts ability to exceed the wind.

The trial is a fraud used to support what is a claim for perpetual motion. It is up to you to prove that the data is valid.

This record will be annulled. Yevgheni and I are working on that, but forums are not the place to discuss that.

 

[spork]

humber is a liar - plain and simple. Whether his lying is a result of his delusion is not relevant. To the best of my understanding, the brain-damage he has admitted to has more to do with difficulty in understanding things.

 

[RossFW]

The result is due to chance, and unlikely to be be repeated by two successive runs.

The cart exceeded windspeed on every attempt, both before and after it had the farings put on it.

Sorry Humber, you really are getting to the depths of delusion here.

Simple statement please- are you wrong abot the pylons acting as sails?

 

[RossFW]

This record will be annulled. Yevgheni and I are working on that, but forums are not the place to discuss that.

You understand that will invovle dealing with actual people and having to make lucid, supportable staements?

That would be fun to watch!!

 

[humber]

You understand that will invovle dealing with actual people and having to make lucid, supportable staements?

That would be fun to watch!!

So you say. The propless carts are in the holding bay. Spork hopes they don't exist.
You say lucid statements. Then Steve Smith supports what I have said, but your belief does not let you accept that. Relative KE. Do you know how TRIVIAL that idea is? Electronics is all abstracted, Captain. Nothing moves.

 

[RossFW]

Humber,

Provided with a public forum in which you could make your arguments and present your evidence, judged by a suitably qualified group of scientists, would you attend and agree to abide by their judgement?

 

[RossFW]

Oh, and there is no such thing as relative KE- there is just KE, which happens to be a relative value.

 

[humber]

The cart exceeded windspeed on every attempt, both before and after it had the farings put on it.

Sorry Humber, you really are getting to the depths of delusion here.

Simple statement please- are you wrong abot the pylons acting as sails?

No, Captain, there will be more runs on the cutting room floor, than were recorded or met any sort of outcome. If it fails, it tries again.
The official run starts at UTC 588960. But if delayed by 10 seconds, the result is quite different.

Only the once, Captain?

As I have said, Spork knew of the wind conditions before the trial. (After Ivanaph, I checked the records ) and that the run would be too short for steady-state.

He does not like a level-playing field - ever. He bullies all opponents with his gang of henchmen, until opposition is driven away. NALSA were schmoozed into loosing objectivity. He was involved in determining the rules, and the trial process. The vane came from him, and was forced onto the CV on a lame pretext. Vanes are not all the same. He tested it. Had the outcome been bad for him, then another excuse would have been generated.
The trial was "can I take it over, daddy"


The cart can travel >WS using momentum and the wind gradient alone. It uses the towers as sails, but that is not necessary, but useful at speeds below WS, to get the prop speed up and running,

Allowing for even more losses than Spork has, the cart needs only 500J/s at 27mph. More likely 300J/s, but the only data comes via Spork, and he is inept, but we will have to make do with what he has selected to make available.

The rotor will be turning at 50-60rpm at that time. There are two blades, so a blade reaches into the air 100-120 times per minute
Less than 10% of the available energy. There is more energy on the sails . When will you accept that the cart is not ddw, and you have no real idea of the wind, because the measurements are rubbish?
The tower and the blade act as a storage and recovery mechanism. Easily done.
If designed to do so, rather than being the result of dumb luck, a cart using that principle would beat the BB every time.

The streamer in the Jenkins video, points to the rear ( so showing >WS) before the cart starts. Why did you not remark on that? You don't care. Whatever is served to you, you eat.

 

[humber]

Humber,

Provided with a public forum in which you could make your arguments and present your evidence, judged by a suitably qualified group of scientists, would you attend and agree to abide by their judgement?

Spork tried that ruse. When I agreed, he backed away. The opportunity was then and there. So, after capitulating, and wanting to save face, he threw up another challenge of his making to Yevghnei and me.
Like the downwind cart, upwind cart is a challenge of his making. No official university-controlled races for Sporky! All "challenges" are marked decks.
Like his $100K bets. All hot air.

I have taken you all on, so Spork is nothing. The experts Allain, Camp and Kammen say I am right.

 

[ridgerunner]

Dftt

I wonder if humber thinks we'll believe his lies if he repeats them often enough?

It doesn't care. It is a troll. It revels only in its uncanny ability to keep as many as possible dancing on the ends of its strings. For YEARS now!

Did you see "Ed Wood"?

Remember the line: "Pull Zee streengs!... Pull Zee streengs!..."?

 

[humber]

It doesn't care. It is a troll. It revels only in its uncanny ability to keep as many as possible dancing on the ends of its strings. For YEARS now!

Did you see "Ed Wood"?

Remember the line: "Pull Zee streengs!... Pull Zee streengs!..."?

And in the Middle Ages, if bacteria curdled the milk, it was blamed on witches.

 

[RossFW]

Spork tried that ruse. When I agreed, he backed away. The opportunity was then and there. So, after capitulating, and wanting to save face, he threw up another challenge of his making to Yevghnei and me.
Like the downwind cart, upwind cart is a challenge of his making. No official university-controlled races for Sporky! All "challenges" are marked decks.
Like his $100K bets. All hot air.

I have taken you all on, so Spork is nothing. The experts Allain, Camp and Kammen say I am right.

So that's a no then....

Predictable

 

[lionking]

It doesn't care. It is a troll. It revels only in its uncanny ability to keep as many as possible dancing on the ends of its strings. For YEARS now!

Did you see "Ed Wood"?

Remember the line: "Pull Zee streengs!... Pull Zee streengs!..."?

Welcome ridgerunner. Whatever you do, don't confine yourself to this one thread. There's a wide, wonderful world in other parts of the forum.

 

[spork]

More lies from humber of course. He never agreed to a moderated debate. What he implied he would do (I don't think he actually agreed to it) is to make a circus of an existing engagement in which JB and I were invited to speak at NASA. Nothing about that was to be a moderated debate. humber just saw it as a potential opportunity to exercise his Tourette syndrome of delusion and lies in front of an audience that had done nothing to deserve such crap.

I will be more than happy to support the DDWFTTW side at a moderated talk. Good luck getting a denier to take the other side.