Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

[humber]

You need to see that I have the tools? You couldn't even come up with a broken screwdriver. Nobody buys your pose of being some kind of expert any more humber.

Go ahead. Show me where either Bauer's or Drela's papers are anything like Spork's. Bauer's is more complex, but Drela's is easy. Just algebra.

It can be you, or anybody else. How about Spork? Surely he can?

 

[humber]

I don't want to make this all about you, but... can you hear yourself?

What? Say again?

When the spool is on an incline, the thread is no longer pulled as before, not parallel), and the normal force moves away from under the center of the reel as well.
It's then like the second diagram I posted, where the reel essentially turns around that point. It is quite different from the condition that was under discussion, but looks much the same. Remember, I raised the matter of the incline. As I have already said, I was looking for a means of making a video that would be bullet-proof evidence against willful denial. That one is no good.

 

[humber]

Shut up and give the man the arrows he demands.

JB

I am all a-quiver.

 

[jadebox]

But, even in some idealized case of a perfect flow, the balloon will not reach the speed of the medium.

Isn't this pretty solid proof that he's just trolling?

-- Roger

 

[CORed]

Isn't this pretty solid proof that he's just trolling?

-- Roger

The question about humber all along has been, troll or crank? i. e., does he really believe the nonsense he is spouting.

On one hand, it's kind of hard to imagine how he could get so much basic stuff wrong without trying. He's not even right often enough to be a broken clock, yet he seems to know a lot of the jargon and formulas, which seems to support the troll hypothesis.

OTOH he has shown a remarkable dedication to this topic for someone who is just yanking our chains, over at least two years and three or more different forums.

I think the only way to know for sure is to get inside humber's head, and that's not a place I would ever want to go.

 

[I Ratant]

Rather verbose. JB went with an economical, "no"

.
I kinda prefer the more verbose, over the "No", "Wrong", "Lie" responses, when there is actual information in the response, and not more of the endless sniping.
Sadly such responses are few.
I'm wondering if the numerous such can't any the questions with a technical response.
Hadn't seen the "free balloon" screaming sessions.
More entertainment, in the noir sense.
I'm gonna go with a free balloon travels at the wind speed.
The ones I see flying past do.
Those with strings attached, the strings don't hang straight down, but at a angle, downwind.
The manned hot-air balloons have no sense of a wind, for the passengers.
Ergo, they are moving at the speed of the wind.

 

[spork]

.
I kinda prefer the more verbose, over the "No", "Wrong", "Lie" responses, when there is actual information in the response, and not more of the endless sniping.
Sadly such responses are few.

Yeah, we felt pretty much the same way when you arrived to tell us how pointless the project and discussion are. That would be the discussion you're now trying to participate in. But it's hard to have that discussion when your posts are non-responsive.

I'm wondering if the numerous such can't any the questions with a technical response.

Hmmm... we built a manned DDWFTTW cart and set the world record. You claim that a free-wheeling prop creates thrust, that a spinning prop creates more drag when it has to turn the engine, and that a stationary prop uses "sail effect". We needn't wonder if you are able to give accurate technical responses.

 

[I Ratant]

It's funny how I Ratant demands that people define their terms, but at the same time throws around with some self-invented terms like "sail effect", "prop drag effect". Has he ever defined those terms formally, using physical quantities like forces, torques, velocities etc.?

.
Gotme!
Ouuuooo!
The "sail effect"... the propellor on the driven cart has the function of a sail.
It is the sole source of energy available to move the cart at all, presuming no push truck.
It continues this contribution as the cart begins to move, and the wheels then through the drive connection start to rotate the propellor.
We all know (I hope) the propellor would rotate in the opposite direction were it free to rotate, but the drive connection to the wheels prevents that rotation, but that drive connection to the wheels has to fight the natural rotation of the prop.
Up to the point where the cart achieves wind speed, the propellor is functioning as a sail. Hence, "sail effect".
"prop drag effect". On an airplane, when the motor is turned off, the propellor has no thrust. It ---drags- on the airframe.
Many unfortunate incidences in the history of aviation have led to the requirement that propellors do the least worst effect to the airplane in terms of drag, which is a bad thing most of the time.
With airplanes with a wide speed margin, and variable pitch propellors, the unpowered propellor can be rotated on a axis along the blade(s) to where the blade(s) provide the least amount of drag to the airplane.
This is termed "feathering". (just being thorough)
When the prop isn't being powered and isn't feathered, the airspeed and propellor pitch can be such that the propellor rotates. On a single engine airplane, this adds drag. Which will require a change in the flight path.
On a multi-engine airplane, the drag will be off the center line of the plane, which will require some control surface adjustments to realign the flight path.
The lower the pitch (blade angle of the propellor relative to the airstream) the more drag the propellor adds to the airframe at any speed. Therefore the least drag condition is with the propellor feathered, as noted above.
One might, and can say, this is the "prop drag effect".
Or run off into torques and other things, which say the same, but less clearly.
I even gots a pichur...

 

[spork]

The "sail effect"... the propellor on the driven cart has the function of a sail.
It is the sole source of energy available to move the cart at all, presuming no push truck.
It continues this contribution as the cart begins to move, and the wheels then through the drive connection start to rotate the propellor.
...
Up to the point where the cart achieves wind speed, the propellor is functioning as a sail. Hence, "sail effect".

The prop blades continue to act as a sail ALWAYS. I look forward to you continuing to ignore this or fail to understand it. But I think I must have been absent the day they talked about "sail effect" when getting my aero degrees.

"prop drag effect". On an airplane, when the motor is turned off, the propellor has no thrust. It ---drags- on the airframe.

And you claim incorrectly that this effect is greater when the prop is turning the engine.

The lower the pitch (blade angle of the propellor relative to the airstream)

That's not pitch.

One might, and can say, this is the "prop drag effect".
Or run off into torques and other things, which say the same, but less clearly.

One can also make up terms and get the facts wrong - while telling us how pointless our project is - and then undertaking an unthinkably simple project himself. Well done.

 

[humber]

The question about humber all along has been, troll or crank? i. e., does he really believe the nonsense he is spouting.

On one hand, it's kind of hard to imagine how he could get so much basic stuff wrong without trying. He's not even right often enough to be a broken clock, yet he seems to know a lot of the jargon and formulas, which seems to support the troll hypothesis.

OTOH he has shown a remarkable dedication to this topic for someone who is just yanking our chains, over at least two years and three or more different forums.

I think the only way to know for sure is to get inside humber's head, and that's not a place I would ever want to go.

That is blind faith at work.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

What? Say again?

When the spool is on an incline, the thread is no longer pulled as before, not parallel), and the normal force moves away from under the center of the reel as well.

Yeah, when the spool is on an incline and the thread is pulled paralleel to the incline, gravity is now acting in part to oppose it. It won't work, you said. It does work, we said. I did work. Over and over.

 

[humber]

.
I kinda prefer the more verbose, over the "No", "Wrong", "Lie" responses, when there is actual information in the response, and not more of the endless sniping.
Sadly such responses are few.
I'm wondering if the numerous such can't any the questions with a technical response.
Hadn't seen the "free balloon" screaming sessions.
More entertainment, in the noir sense.
I'm gonna go with a free balloon travels at the wind speed.

Free balloons travel close to the wind, but no object ever gets to 100% of WS. That implies a force on the balloon of zero. If one is naive enough to think that the air in front of the balloon travels at the same speed as the air at the rear, then you have my ducks is a row.
It is obvious even from commons sense, that the balloon will cast a wind shadow. The Carteers accept that no sail can get to WS, but think a balloon can.
They have a world of cartoons, where all complex matters are dismissed.
Spork retails simple-minded analogies.

.
The ones I see flying past do.
Those with strings attached, the strings don't hang straight down, but at a angle, downwind.

Thus demonstrating that they don't travel at WS. If the string is not at WS, then the balloon can't be, unless you think the balloon can travel further than the string, while attached to the string. A vertical string may demonstrate WS.

.
The manned hot-air balloons have no sense of a wind, for the passengers.
Ergo, they are moving at the speed of the wind.

Hot air balloons have an engine: a heat engine. They use potential energy gained from gravity to exceed the wind. They may travel less than, the same as or more than windspeed.

The balloons are used by Carteers to avoid talking about the major problems they have with their BS cart: the cheating, data manipulation, burning need for a record at all costs, a rotor that defeats itself, a theory not supported by any paper, peer-reviewed or not. etc etc.
It is only TAD's myopic ambition that keeps them afloat.

 

[humber]

Yeah, when the spool is on an incline and the thread is pulled paralleel to the incline, gravity is now acting in part to oppose it. It won't work, you said. It does work, we said. I did work. Over and over.

Not once. Find the quote that supports what you say.

 

[humber]

The prop blades continue to act as a sail ALWAYS. I look forward to you continuing to ignore this or fail to understand it. But I think I must have been absent the day they talked about "sail effect" when getting my aero degrees.

Absent or vacant?

The sail and poor measurement explain all. All the rest is fantasy and nonsense, and the cart won't start because of it.
You ride on Drela's and Bauer's tailcoats, even though the the former snubbed you, and there is nothing at all in common with either ideas, and your nonsense.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

.Up to the point where the cart achieves wind speed, the propellor is functioning as a sail. Hence, "sail effect".

The blades on the BB rotor function as a sail at *all speeds*(including zero), but then you prefer to simply ignore this fact and make up your own.

JB

 

[humber]

The blades on the BB rotor function as a sail at *all speeds*(including zero), but then you prefer to simply ignore this fact and make up your own.

JB

And that is why your own video shows that when facing a fan, the cart is blown backwards. That is proof that your claim is totally wrong. Even though it was staring you in the face, you ignored it, just as you did the random behavior of the cart in the street.

 

[I Ratant]

Breakout friction race.
The latest cart has much less than the previous cart.
There's still some tight points somewhere in the drive train the latest cart locks up.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

And that is why your own video shows that when facing a fan, the cart is blown backwards. That is proof that your claim is totally wrong. Even though it was staring you in the face, you ignored it, just as you did the random behavior of the cart in the street.

Yes Black Knight - yes.

JB

 

[I Ratant]

The blades on the BB rotor function as a sail at *all speeds*(including zero), but then you prefer to simply ignore this fact and make up your own.

JB

.
That's better than "No", and "wrong".
I'm not ignoring that, I'm working up to it.
Why, once the cart passes windspeed, is the pushing sail effect still there?
Shouldn't the prop be resisting forward motion after that point?
All by itself of course.
The wheels connection does something.

 

[ThinAirDesigns]

.I'm not ignoring that, I'm working up to it.

JB