Dawkins's comments re: tsunami disaster

[jj]

So now we move from the actual definition (that didn't mention claim at all...) to synonyms? Heh, ok. If Claus wanted to talk about synonyms, you'd think he would have brought them up originally?


Ridiculous, cheater. You used a word that implies a claim was made. Claus' dictionary definitions (which do suffice for this, unlike the case in much technical language) show clearly that you made a claim, and now you want to claim you didn't.

You haven't supported either claim, and you can't


Private language, nope, English, and going directly from the dictionary definitions.


The dictionary definition, as you well know, goes against you. Your outright lies in this regard expose your malice completely.


Report me to the mods, j² if you are so offended by "making fun". Better yet, write me a condescending haiku about it.

You are engaging in dishonest debate, and attempting, deliberately, to anger the people whose reputation and stature you are attempting to threaten.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Ridiculous, cheater.

You're concerned about civility... out of one corner of your mouth anyway.

You used a word that implies a claim was made.

Still bogus. None of the definitions mentioned "claim" at all. That is a fact.

Claus' dictionary definitions (which do suffice for this, unlike the case in much technical language) show clearly that you made a claim, and now you want to claim you didn't.

They most certainly do not. His definitions said:

Forecast
1 a : to calculate or predict (some future event or condition) usually as a result of study and analysis of available pertinent data; especially : to predict (weather conditions) on the basis of correlated meteorological observations b : to indicate as likely to occur
2 : to serve as a forecast of : PRESAGE
intransitive senses : to calculate the future
synonym see FORETELL

and

Prediction
1 : an act of predicting
2 : something that is predicted : FORECAST

Nope, jj, no "claim" there at all. Keep trying to s t r e t c h the meanings.

The dictionary definition, as you well know, goes against you.

As I don't well know, since the definitions don't say anything about a claim.

Your outright lies in this regard expose your malice completely.

The definitions [don't say anything about a claim. So no lies there, as the definitions don't actually say "claim" at all. S t r e t c h some more.

You are engaging in dishonest debate, and attempting, deliberately, to anger the people whose reputation and stature you are attempting to threaten.

If you believe so then report me to the mods as I've mentioned. And/or write me a condecsending haiku.

 

[NoDeity]

From dictionary.com:

pre·dict

To state, tell about, or make known in advance, especially on the basis of special knowledge.

claim

1. To demand, ask for, or take as one's own or one's due: claim a reward; claim one's luggage at the airport carousel.
2. To take in a violent manner as if by right: a hurricane that claimed two lives.
3. To state to be true, especially when open to question; assert or maintain: claimed he had won the race; a candidate claiming many supporters.
4. To deserve or call for; require: problems that claim her attention.

For claim, we're obviously using the third definition. So, once one understands what it means to make a claim, it is abundantly obvious that to make a prediction is to make a claim about the future. The fact that the definition of prediction doesn't mention the word "claim" is irrelevent. It's clear from the definitions that a prediction can rightly be seen as a type of claim.

mur·der

1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
2. Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
3. A flock of crows. See Synonyms at flock1.

The dictionary.com definition of "murder" doesn't include the word "crime". Would you like to argue, then, that murder isn't a type of crime?

 

[T'ai Chi]

NoDeity,

For claim, we're obviously using the third definition. So, once one understands what it means to make a claim, it is abundantly obvious that to make a prediction is to make a claim about the future.

Claus said that a prediction to to claim to know the future. Do you agree or disagree with him?

With my prediction I'm just throwing out a guess, and that is all.

The fact that the definition of prediction doesn't mention the word "claim" is irrelevent.

It is highly relevant, as dictionaries give the meanings of words.

The dictionary.com definition of "murder" doesn't include the word "crime". Would you like to argue, then, that murder isn't a type of crime?

Just what do you think "unlawful" means?

 

[NoDeity]

Originally posted by jzs

Claus said that a prediction to to claim to know the future. Do you agree or disagree with him?

To predict is to "state, tell about, or make known in advance". To claim is to "state to be true". So, to predict is to claim in advance. It's pretty simple.

With my prediction I'm just throwing out a guess, and that is all.

So, you weren't predicting. You were guessing. It's not our fault that you're not choosing your words with sufficient care.

It is highly relevant, as dictionaries give the meanings of words.

The definitions of claim and predict make it plain that to predict is to claim in advance.

Just what do you think "unlawful" means?

According to the reasoning you've been using so far, since the word "crime" isn't used in the definition, it's not a crime. You're the one who didn't want synonyms brought into it, remember?

 

[T'ai Chi]

To predict is to "state, tell about, or make known in advance". To claim is to "state to be true". So, to predict is to claim in advance. It's pretty simple.

So you then agree with Claus that making a prediciton is claiming to know the future? Yes or no?

According to the reasoning you've been using so far, since the word "crime" isn't used in the definition, it's not a crime. You're the one who didn't want synonyms brought into it, remember?

Nope. The word "unlawful" is in the definition of murder.

NoDeity, care to address this:

As an example of a prediction, say I have some data on daily temperature, something like the daily temperature at 12noon for each day of January 2005. Using the past data (data from Jan 1 to Jan 9th inclusive), I predict that T[10] (the temperature for Jan. 10th at 12noon) will be 64 degrees.

Does that mean I am claiming to know that it is 64 degrees?

 

[CFLarsen]

Just what do you think "unlawful" means?

BEEP! Sorry, the definition did not specifically say "crime". Ergo - by your line of reasoning - murder isn't a crime.

See how ridiculous your argument is?

 

[T'ai Chi]

BEEP! Sorry, the definition did not specifically say "crime". Ergo - by your line of reasoning - murder isn't a crime.

"unlawful" is right there in the definition.

Nowhere in your definitions of prediction is anything saying that it is a claim to know the future, as you believe.

See how ridiculous your argument is?

Please address:

As an example of a prediction, say I have some data on daily temperature, something like the daily temperature at 12noon for each day of January 2005. Using the past data (data from Jan 1 to Jan 9th inclusive), I predict that T[10] (the temperature for Jan. 10th at 12noon) will be 64 degrees.

Does that mean I am claiming to know that it is 64 degrees?

Let me know...

 

[NoDeity]

So you then agree with Claus that making a prediciton is claiming to know the future? Yes or no?

To predict is to make a claim about what will happen in the future. It's not clear to me that a prediction is necessarily a statement of knowledge. It could be a statement of belief, which is not the same as knowledge.

Nope. The word "unlawful" is in the definition of murder.

Obviously. The word "crime", however, is not in the definition. I repeat: You're the one who didn't want synonyms brought into it, remember?

NoDeity, care to address this:

As an example of a prediction, say I have some data on daily temperature, something like the daily temperature at 12noon for each day of January 2005. Using the past data (data from Jan 1 to Jan 9th inclusive), I predict that T[10] (the temperature for Jan. 10th at 12noon) will be 64 degrees.

Does that mean I am claiming to know that it is 64 degrees?

If you predict that it will be 64 degrees, then you are claiming to know that it will be 64 degrees. If you predict a temperature of 64 degrees and qualify it by giving yourself a likelihood of, say, 80% of being correct, that's a different matter. It's an example of the value of presenting your ideas clearly and precisely.

 

[CFLarsen]

"unlawful" is right there in the definition.

So is prediction. That's what prediction means: Claiming to know the future.

Nowhere in your definitions of prediction is anything saying that it is a claim to know the future, as you believe.

So, when an astrologer makes a prediction, he is not claiming to know the future?

Please address:

You have no right to demand that people address your points, when you continuously refuse to address theirs.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Obviously. The word "crime", however, is not in the definition. I repeat: You're the one who didn't want synonyms brought into it, remember?

The difference is "unlawful" means "crime". "Prediction" does not mean "claim".

If you predict that it will be 64 degrees, then you are claiming to know that it will be 64 degrees.

That's good, because in my example I was not claiming it will be 64 degrees, merely predicting a temperature of 64 degrees. When the weatherpeople tell us the temperature for later on in the week they are not claiming the temperature will be a certain degree, just predicting.

 

[T'ai Chi]

So is prediction. That's what prediction means: Claiming to know the future.

No PseudoSkeptic, that is still wrong.

In my example:

Say I have some data on daily temperature, something like the daily temperature at 12noon for each day of January 2005. Using the past data (data from Jan 1 to Jan 9th inclusive), I predict that T[10] (the temperature for Jan. 10th at 12noon) will be 64 degrees.

That does not mean I am claiming to know that it is 64 degrees. That does not mean I am claiming to see or know the future.

So, when an astrologer makes a prediction, he is not claiming to know the future?

I've already addressed this, PseudoSkeptic. I already said that my prediction is different from someone who is claiming to actually see or actually know the future. I don't make that claim. Their predictions are claims to know the future, on the otherhand.

Mine are identical to my weather example, not to a psychic claim.

You have no right to demand that people address your points, when you continuously refuse to address theirs.

A temper temper
Claus-minded, as one can see
A tantrum tantrum

 

[NoDeity]

The difference is "unlawful" means "crime". "Prediction" does not mean "claim".

You seem to be missing the point. Look at the definitions again. A claim and a prediction are both statements. The primary difference is that a prediction is specifically a statement about the future whereas the timeframe of a claim is not specific. Prediction is a type of claim as murder is a type of crime.

As I see it, not all claims are equally strong. A weather prediction is a claim but the forecaster generally uses qualifying terms. They'll say, "We're expecting lows of -21 degrees" or "There's a 60% likelihood of showers". (I qualified my claim about what forecasters say by using the word "generally" to cover the possibility that some forecasters might sometimes not use qualifiers.)

If you use no qualifying terms, you shouldn't be surprised if your prediction is treated as a claim of fact-to-be. If you are guessing and if you care about whether or not people will treat your guess as a guess rather than as a claim of fact, then you'd be well-advised to make it clear that you are guessing.

 

[T'ai Chi]

A claim and a prediction are both statements.

And... ? A prediction, in the sense I am using it, as explained (for example the weather example), is not a claim to know the future.

Prediction is a type of claim as murder is a type of crime.

Claus said, point blank, a prediction is a claim to know the future. If I predict 64 degrees, I am not claiming to know the future. Period. If I predict religious groups will donate more than atheist organizations, I am not claiming to know the future regarding their donations. Period.

[
A weather prediction is a claim but the forecaster generally uses qualifying terms. They'll say, "We're expecting lows of -21 degrees" or ...

And my prediction is what I'm expecting, yes.

If you use no qualifying terms, you shouldn't be surprised if your prediction is treated as a claim of fact-to-be.

I'm not surprised. And I did use qualifiers. I clarified, many times, my exact position. They were simply ignored for the most part, however. Here are the clarifications I used in the thread, just for you:

I'm not claiming to be any psychic though.

I do not make such a claim to being psychic.

Based on my own personal experience, that is my experience.

My prediction is based on my obviously subjective observations from the past.

A prediction is basically a guess. I certainly didn't make any claim to know the future. In fact I said it was based on my obviously subjective observations from the past, that is, me not recalling hearing about atheist groups out there donating. Maybe they are and I just never heard about it, who knows.

I didn't claim that religious organizations donate more than atheist organizations. I made a prediciton that the religious organizations will donate more than atheist organizations.

Moreover, I'm not dogmatically clinging to that prediction. If it turns out to be wrong, then it is wrong. I just hope the victims get what they need to get through it.

I'm not claiming to be able to actually see the future. I'm guessing.

I'm not claiming to be able to actually see the future. I'm guessing, and in fact allow that I could be wrong. I'm not claiming the future will be this or that way.

It is a prediction, a forecast, not a claim of how things will be in the future.

I didn't claim to know the future, PseudoSkeptic.

...I outright said my prediction is a subjective guess, and I could be wrong, etc., and specifically said I'm not making a claim to know the future like a self-proclaimed psychic would...

With my prediction I'm just throwing out a guess, and that is all.

That does not mean I am claiming to know that it is 64 degrees. That does not mean I am claiming to see or know the future.

I already said that my prediction is different from someone who is claiming to actually see or actually know the future. I don't make that claim. Their predictions are claims to know the future, on the otherhand. Mine are identical to my weather example, not to a psychic claim.

 

[T'ai Chi]

They'll say, "We're expecting lows of -21 degrees" or "There's a 60% likelihood of showers".

So when one predicts that T(10) = 64, are you saying that they are claiming to know that on Jan. 10 it will be 64 degrees?

 

[NoDeity]

So when one predicts that T(10) = 64, are you saying that they are claiming to know that on Jan. 10 it will be 64 degrees? [/B]

I said what I meant and I stated it clearly.
Christ, are you always such a whiner?

 

[CFLarsen]

In my example:

Say I have some data on daily temperature, something like the daily temperature at 12noon for each day of January 2005. Using the past data (data from Jan 1 to Jan 9th inclusive), I predict that T[10] (the temperature for Jan. 10th at 12noon) will be 64 degrees.

That does not mean I am claiming to know that it is 64 degrees. That does not mean I am claiming to see or know the future.

But in your example, you have some data to work from. What data are you working from, when you predicted that religious groups would give more than atheist groups?

I've already addressed this, PseudoSkeptic. I already said that my prediction is different from someone who is claiming to actually see or actually know the future. I don't make that claim. Their predictions are claims to know the future, on the otherhand.

Mine are identical to my weather example, not to a psychic claim.

No it isn't, because meteorologists use previous data to make their predictions. Do you? Or do you merely assert that your claim is different, so there?

 

[CFLarsen]

So when one predicts that T(10) = 64, are you saying that they are claiming to know that on Jan. 10 it will be 64 degrees?

But that's not what you are doing: You are not being specific at all. You merely say "more". And you certainly didn't say "expected"....

If you meant what you are now claiming what you meant, why not simply say that you were not clear at first? Is it so much harder to say "I wasn't being precise enough" than to carry on an endless debate on the meaning of "prediction"?

It's always the others who are wrong, isn't it?

 

[T'ai Chi]

But in your example, you have some data to work from.

You ignored the question, didn't you PseudoSkeptic? Are they claiming to know the future, Yes or No?

What data are you working from, when you predicted that religious groups would give more than atheist groups?

I've already said, subjective feelings, based on the past, seeing religious groups out and about more.

 

[T'ai Chi]

But that's not what you are doing: You are not being specific at all. You merely say "more". And you certainly didn't say "expected"....

I've clarified myself after people asked questions.

It's always the others who are wrong, isn't it?

Nope. In this case, PseudoSkeptic, however, you are wrong when you persist in claiming that I am claiming to know the future.