Split Thread David Gilroy: murder conviction goes to Scottish Review Commission

[Rolfe]

I'm going to Arran for a few days this week.

I think I'd start where the wee burn emerges from the trees. It's a fairly surreal place, not flat at all and mounds of sphagnum moss and several channels runnong here and there among the trees. I think if I had a body to hide I'd probably want to get in there where I was unlikely to be observed, and where casual walkers were unlikely to go. Yes it's commercial forestry, but it doesn't have the bare forest floor that characterises most of that, and it still hasn't been felled 16 years later. It might not be too much of a stretch to imagine that a felling operation after such a long time might not turn up anything suspicious, to anyone who wasn't looking for it. He had to find somewhere, and if it wasn't the pond, and the ground in the open is too compacted to dig (as I think might be the case), the forest looks like the next best possibility.

 

[Alduma]

Despite everybody’s hard work (and expense) in looking at the pond, I feel that’s a very unlikely location. He’d want to get out of sight at soon as possible, so adjacent forest is the place. Once in there, he could actually have travelled quite far with the superhuman strength fear can bring.

The pond risked discovery during placement, the water drying up or Suzanne rising to the surface. Being right at a picnic area it would be seen soon.

His priority would have been dumping her and getting back in the road - long term considerations would be secondary. He may have thought he’d be able to come back.

I still feel this is the right place, apart from anything else that trough at the bottom of the track (no longer there) would have caused serious and unexpected damage to the car.

I must go along - I live in Argyll so actually pretty accessible. The only thing stopping me is my wife’s raised eyebrow (which could stop a speeding train)!

 

[Alduma]

If he parked in the same place as the car in this picture and the disposal site is at A, B or C he would need to carry the body over the river.

View attachment 70490

He may have thought about wild animals digging up the bones from a shallow grave and dispersing them around the area (similar to the Louise Tiffney case) A human bone dug up by a fox then found by a hiker would trigger a police search.

In D he would have to carry the body from the car across open ground into the trees. It would be difficult to dig a deep enough grave in there.

In E he would have to dig a grave as hikers/their dogs could stumble over a partially covered body.

He could have parked at area 1 then dug a deep enough grave near 2 (which gives him some privacy) The grave would have to be 3 feet deep as per this Instagram video. This is deep enough to prevent wild animals detecting the decomposition smell from the body and therefore they would not dig at the grave. He could then have dragged/carried the body from the car boot to the grave and filled it in.

Taking this into account area 2 in the image is the best place to search with a metal detector and a shovel.

View attachment 70491

Digging a grave in the open, by a picnic area, adjacent to a walkers route and what used to be a mountain bike route? I can't see it. If that was me I'd want to avoid detection so would have headed into the trees. A city boy might not have thought about the prevalence of roots. and finding a diggable place in the trees could explain some of the 90 minutes of missing time. I'm sure someone's already calculated what his driving time to this spot and back would have been off the Trunk Road - say 45 minutes to an hour total including havering? so that would leave 30-45 minutes for disposal. Not actually that long.

 

[Alduma]

I also agree with the recent analysis of other options - Duncan Ban monument too public and open, with houses on the way up and private estates beyond; Succoth a private road (possibilities of ‘can I help you?’ interactions with residents); Glen Strae off the Stronmilchan road too open, with risk of meeting farmer etc. Also no reason for him to be familiar with the latter two.

The only thing I’d say about the Succoth road is that the houses are at the far end and it would have been possible to stop a short way up and be out of sight. But: even though it’s unsurfaced the road was good even back then and little chance of suspension damage, also it’s been cleared of forestry since then with no discoveries.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

I also agree with the recent analysis of other options - Duncan Ban monument too public and open, with houses on the way up and private estates beyond; Succoth a private road (possibilities of ‘can I help you?’ interactions with residents); Glen Strae off the Stronmilchan road too open, with risk of meeting farmer etc. Also no reason for him to be familiar with the latter two.

The only thing I’d say about the Succoth road is that the houses are at the far end and it would have been possible to stop a short way up and be out of sight. But: even though it’s unsurfaced the road was good even back then and little chance of suspension damage, also it’s been cleared of forestry since then with no discoveries.

His journey between Tyndrum and Inveraray (hopefully my calculations are correct);

He passed The Green Welly, Tyndrum at 13.22.

The Green Welly, Tyndrum to the junction of the A85 and B8074 is 9.5 miles and takes 12 minutes according to Google maps which is an average of 37.5 mph. The speed limit between The Green Welly, Tyndrum and the junction of the A82 and A85 is a combination of 30 to 40mph which means he drove 0.2 miles at an average of 35 mph. The speed limit on the A85 is 60mph which means he could have driven the 9.3 miles at 60 mph. Assuming he drove at the speed limit then 0.2 miles at 35mph takes 20 seconds and 9.3 miles at 60 mph takes 9 minutes and 18 seconds so he could have driven from Tyndrum to the junction of the A85 and B8074 in about 10 minutes.

Arriving at the junction of the A85 and B8074 at 13.32 he then turns right and drives the 4.4 miles on the single track road on the B8074. It takes 11 minutes (driving at 24 mph) according to Google maps to get to the bridge which is probably correct as you rarely get out of 3rd gear on this road.

From the bridge to the picnic bench on the forestry road it takes 5 minutes to drive 1.4 miles (according to Google maps) which is an average speed of 16.8 mph. This is probably correct as he would have driven in 2nd gear for the majority of the route.

This means he arrives at the picnic bench 26 minutes after passing the Green Welly, Tyndrum.

His journey from the picnic bench to Inveraray;

Picnic bench to the bridge takes 5 minutes and from the bridge to the junction of the B8074 and A85 takes 11 minutes.

Junction of B8074 and A85 to The Royal Burgh Cafe, Inveraray is 18 miles and takes 28 minutes according to Google maps giving an average speed of 38.5 mph.

However, the speed limit on the A85 and A819 is 60 mph (although there is a 40 mph limit at Dalmally and a 30 mph limit in Inveraray) so he could have driven the majority of the 18 miles at 60 mph which takes 18 minutes (rounded up to 20 minutes for the speed limits at Dalmally and Inveraray)

The total time to drive from the picnic bench to Inveraray is therefore 36 minutes.

He passes The Royal Burgh cafe, Inveraray at 15.51.

The timings for the full route between The Green Welly, Tyndrum to The Royal Burgh Cafe, Inveraray are therefore;



I agree the forest at D is the most likely disposal site as A, B and C involve crossing the river and digging at E is too risky (the ground is also full of rocks/stones even at a depth of one foot) The forest at D is very boggy in places and you need to tread carefully (I nearly lost a welly boot in there) and there are also a few fallen trees.

 

[Rolfe]

Despite everybody’s hard work (and expense) in looking at the pond, I feel that’s a very unlikely location. He’d want to get out of sight at soon as possible, so adjacent forest is the place. Once in there, he could actually have travelled quite far with the superhuman strength fear can bring.

The pond risked discovery during placement, the water drying up or Suzanne rising to the surface. Being right at a picnic area it would be seen soon.

His priority would have been dumping her and getting back in the road - long term considerations would be secondary. He may have thought he’d be able to come back.

I still feel this is the right place, apart from anything else that trough at the bottom of the track (no longer there) would have caused serious and unexpected damage to the car.

I must go along - I live in Argyll so actually pretty accessible. The only thing stopping me is my wife’s raised eyebrow (which could stop a speeding train)!

I was attracted to the pond theory because at the time the pond was tucked away behind that big fir tree and other smaller ones, not very obvious from the picnic area itself. If offered the possibility of getting her out of sight without any digging, and relatively quickly. But you're absolutely right that the difficulty of getting the body submerged and ensuring that it stayed submerged shouldn't be underestimated. Summer was approaching and even if the picnic place wasn't commonly frequented, the risk of something being seen on the surface wasn't zero. I think the pond had to be searched, but we haven't found anything.

Stuart Houston says that experience shows that about 100 yards is the limit of how far a murderer will carry/drag a body, although they searched to 200 yards (in the places they chose to search) just in case. Even 100 yards gives quite a bit of opportunity in that location.

I'm working on the assumption that Gilroy went straight to a place he was aware of, and had probably been to before. However, I don't think it's at all likely that he would have an exact idea of what he was going to do with the body until he got there. It's one thing to be aware of a remote location which is accessible for an ordinary car and which presents obvious possibilities, but surely he wouldn't have scoped it out in advance for an actual disposal site, just in case he lost control and murdered someone on the spur of the moment some time in the future.

Imagine arriving at the picnic spot and looking at it for the first time, thinking, now what? I'm with NightOfTheDemon here. He probably wasn't thinking about a water disposal (unless he'd noticed the pond at an earlier visit). I think there was more water in the burn then than at any of the times we've seen it (Hugh Venables' picture of the wee ford above the picnic place has more water than I've ever seen in it) and there was no need to consider crossing the burn with her anyway. The area immediately around the picnic place is too hard to dig, and exposed if someone happened past. The eaves of the forest look mighty attractive.



There's an obvious way in, where that wee burn comes out of the trees, above and slightly right of the D on NightOfTheDemon's aerial view. We've been in there, I walked all the way through to the path above the picnic place, but we haven't systematically searched it. I wonder if he would have thought of driving the car as close to the edge of the trees as he could, unloading the body, then driving back to park it near the picnic table while he did the rest.

 

[Rolfe]

Digging a grave in the open, by a picnic area, adjacent to a walkers route and what used to be a mountain bike route? I can't see it. If that was me I'd want to avoid detection so would have headed into the trees. A city boy might not have thought about the prevalence of roots. and finding a diggable place in the trees could explain some of the 90 minutes of missing time. I'm sure someone's already calculated what his driving time to this spot and back would have been off the Trunk Road - say 45 minutes to an hour total including havering? so that would leave 30-45 minutes for disposal. Not actually that long.

I timed myself from the A85 to the Allt Broighleachan car park and I can't really remember the time but I'm sure I reported it earlier in the thread. It's 4.36 miles but it's a slow single-track road. It's 5.77 miles to the picnic place, but that last 1.41 miles from the bridge would be very slow driving.

As you say, even though this isn't far from his core route, it eats into his time. Also think about getting changed, and changed back again, and the time taken to get her well in among the trees. There isn't that long. I'm coming round to the view that there was no time for a burial. There are however a lot of possibilities for a concealed dump under these trees. I still think he would have wanted to get her under ground, but where is the opportunity?

Bear in mind that he did come back, but again he wouldn't have had all that long once he got there.

Also bear in mind that the evidence of his tie knot suggests he changed both times.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

I quickly learned to only step on the hummocks and use my trekking poles to test the ground before every step when I was in the triangle section of part D of the forest in April 2026.

I searched within the triangle in April 2026 and found that section 1 is more boggy than section 2 (the blue line is the stream) and there are a few large trees which have fallen (south of the triangle) so I don't think he would have gone any further than the area of the triangle.

Therefore, if he had done a reccy before considering D as the disposal site (while taking into account he would have to carry an 8 to 10 stone body in there) he probably favoured section 2 over section 1. Section 2 is about a 70 yard walk from the picnic bench, less boggy than section 1 but still secluded enough to remain unseen from both the picnic bench and the path to the deer fence at the ancient forest.

It is also possible that the disposal site is further east of the triangle however, that involves crossing the stream.

 

[Rolfe]

I agree. One thing he would have wanted to avoid is blocking a watercourse, but actually this is a favourable situation for that. It's the top of a minor watershed. That burn you have highlighted flows out of the trees towards the Allt Broighleachan by way of that possibly suspension-busting ford across the track on the way to the picnic place, but at the other side the water flows across the track on the way to the forest reserve above the picnic place, by way of that even worse ford. If he chose to use a watercourse to conceal the body it wouldn't have disrupted the water flow very much. And it's not a place people are likely to venture into.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

This could have been his walking route from the picnic bench. He would have made a beeline for the forest edge (just in case a hiker came past while he was carrying the body) and the most obvious access point is at the circle in this image. This is the area where I will search next time - possibly next week between Monday 13th July and Thursday 16th July when its not raining.

 

[Rolfe]

I think he might not have wanted to carry/drag the body across terrain he could have driven the car, so I think he'd have taken it as close as he dared to the eaves of the forest. Even if it might have seemed odd that someone parked a car there, that would be more than offset by the reduced danger of someone seeing what he was doing when he was out in the open. Whether he would have moved the car back to the picnic bench after unloading her I don't know. I wonder how close to the trees a car can actually be driven?

Good luck next week. I have an arm in a plaster-cast so won't be doing expeditions for some weeks.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

There is a large ditch between the picnic bench and the forest however, it may be possible to get close to the forest edge by driving on to the path that leads to the ancient forest then take a left over the grassy area (which may explain the grass found on the underside of his car).

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, that's what I thought.

 

[Rolfe]

Well. We know there's nowhere to pull a car off the road before you get to the picnic place, so forget that. We know that the ground is very compacted and stony pretty much everywhere in the open around the picnic place. Very difficult to dig and impossible to restore the appearance afterwards. There's very little cover around the birch trees and it's probably no better for digging than in the open - probably worse, with tree roots. The pond was always a possible, but it's not very deep and he probably didn't come equipped for a water disposal. There's no reason for him to have taken her over to the other side of the Allt Broighleachan, there are ample possibilities without doing that.

At the beginning of this I thought he'd buried her, and I thought a commercial forestry plantation was an unlikely disposal site - due to the roots, and the open aspect of most of these under the canopy, and the fact that scheduled felling would be liable to expose a body. I've changed my mind on both of these.

The picnic place is less than six miles from the A85, but it could still take the best part of 20 minutes to get up there. I timed myself at 10 minutes for the 4.35 miles to the bridge, and it could easily take another ten minutes to get up that potholed track (1.4 miles so that would be 9 mph). So that's 40 minutes to subtract from the missing 1 hour 50 minutes. So he has an hour and a half up there, roughly. That is not long enough for a burial, realistically. It could be long enough to get her out of sight, in a hollow perhaps, and cover her over.

He has to change into whatever protective clothing he has brought. Do a recce for a suitable disposal place - I think he'd have done that, and I think that obvious gap in the banking around the plantation, where the burn flows out, would have grabbed his attention.



The ground is very uneven, but he was strong and fit. If he's not going for the pond, it's the nearest place to get her out of sight. It's not a very inviting place for picnickers to take a stroll either. In among the trees he might have been pleasantly surprised to find that it isn't open and there are a lot of possibilities for simply dumping a body. I think he'd go for it.

I think he might have driven the car as close as possible to that gap before unloading her, and he might then have driven it back and parked it neatly by the picnic table before proceeding, to look as unsuspicious as possible. Then he has to do the hard work - get her in among the trees and find a hollow where she won't be noticeable, then try to cover her over with moss, branches, whatever.

We have to remember there is other stuff that must be hidden as well as the body. Whatever he had wrapped her in to keep DNA off the car boot. Duvet, ground-sheet, tent, something like that. Any digging tools he had brought, which would have been useful for covering her over even if he didn't dig a grave. His own protective clothing. We can't know how much of that he took to Lochgilphead and then dumped on the way back, but I'm envisaging the boot lined with something impervious and him working within that space, maybe loading everything back in there, intending to clean or dispose of it all later.

He notices time is getting on, and he has to get changed again and make himself presentable before he gets to the school. He doesn't really have all that long once you factor in getting changed twice and the recce and the time to move her into the trees. I think he could have managed the concealment in that time though.

Then at the school he discovers that the cops are on to him, and he will have no opportunity to get rid of the other stuff after getting home, as planned. What to do? He could take a chance and dump the stuff by the roadside somewhere, but if it's found and connected to his journey, he's toast. Maybe find a council waste disposal facility on the way. Does he know these places often have CCTV to catch unauthorised dumping? Was that even the case in 2010? Maybe he thought he would do that when he said he'd be at Corstorphine by 9.30, but then reconsidered.

The second missing time suggests to me that he decided to go back to the same place, as it all went well the first time and there was scope under the trees to hide more stuff. He has under an hour the second time. Same routine, except he only has the equipment to move into the trees this time. Probably took a bit more time to perfect the concealment.

I hear what you say about area 1, but I have a hunch about it. These fallen trees might not have been fallen 16 years ago - there are other places where we know trees came down in a big storm a few years later. Area 1 just seems inviting, as it turns further away from the picnic place and the continuation of the track to the pine forest. Maybe she's even under the fallen trees, which would be a bugger. But of course area 2 is right in the frame too.

The very least the cops could do, now that felling is underway, is ask the forestry people to take a very good look at what they might be turning up when they get to that place.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

It looks like the whole forest area surrounding the picnic bench is to be felled soon with the trees north east of the picnic bench already felled - see page 4 of this pdf https://forestryandland.gov.scot/media/tvwlr2c2/gogl-felling-approval-maps-6.pdf

North west of the picnic bench is next (scheduled for felling in 2024/2025 but behind schedule as it was still there in April 2026) then its south of the picnic bench (scheduled for felling in 2027/2028) including areas 1 and 2 of the triangle and all of the forest on either side the track which leads to the deer fence.

 

[Rolfe]

Well, not much we can do about it other than go up and have a look once it's done and the public is allowed back in. Given the way they fell these plantations it would be a pure fluke if anyone noticed anything, unless they were asked to look out for it.

ETA: Actually, no. Look closely at that map.



The southern boundary of the area to be felled is the track, then west of the picnic place it's the Allt Broighleachan. (I don't think there are any conifers between the track and the burn past the footbridge anyway.) Everything we're seriously interested in is in the yellow area, scheduled for 2027-28, and as you say they're behind schedule anyway. We might have a couple of years yet.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

I agree, it is highly unlikely that the operator of one of these would notice human bones which are covered by branches and have been semi-submerged in the sphagnum for years. More likely to just drive over them.

 

[Rolfe]

Unless the police asked you to keep a look-out. I wonder if there's any hope of persuading the police to do that?

 

[Rolfe]

Corrections and clarifications from above.

The picnic place is less than six miles from the A85, but it could still take the best part of 20 minutes to get up there. I timed myself at 10 minutes for the 4.35 miles to the bridge, and it could easily take another ten minutes to get up that potholed track (1.4 miles so that would be 9 mph). So that's 40 minutes to subtract from the missing 1 hour 50 minutes. So he has an hour and a half TEN MINUTES up there, roughly.

He has under an hour the second time. ACTUALLY, ABOUT 50 MINUTES.

The picnic place is pretty close to Gilroy's core route in the grand scheme of things. Much closer than anything the police have seriously suggested. And yet the time left available to conceal the body still isn't much. Two hours, split into two tranches. It's doable for sure, but how on earth is he supposed to have managed it with a much longer drive to the disposal site, even on faster roads?

Of course the police think he spent the afternoon missing time just driving around trying to find a suitable place and didn't attempt to dispose of the body. Then in the evening he went to that place and just dumped her with minimal attempt at concealment. No change of clothes. How do they think he remained forensically clean? What do they think happened to whatever he lined the car boot with?

There are three huge issues with this over and above that. First, if he really didn't want anyone to know he'd been in the R&BT area, driving around there for a couple of hours is a really bad plan. Especially if CCTV cameras are a thing that has occurred to you. Second, how fast do you go if you're trying to find somewhere to stash a body? Do you stop at all? Do you maybe get out sometimes for a recce (though you'd be well advised not to let anyone see you)? Where does that leave the police's conviction that he drove 124 miles further than his verified route? (This was never credible in my opinion.) If he drove non-stop for the entire off-piste time that would be an average speed of over 36 mph! You can't do that if you're scoping out somewhere to stash a body, and realistically you couldn't do it at all if you left the main A roads. (Even if you included the extra missing 27 minutes at the Lochgilphead end, it's still an average of over 32 mph.) It's impossible. It's ludicrous. And yet Stuart Houston is convinced of the extra 124 miles.

Third, Gilroy couldn't possibly afford for the body to turn up by accident anywhere near any road to Lochgilphead, for the rest of his natural life. Look what happened to Sean Flynn after his mother's body was found accidentally, 15 years after he murdered her. (She hadn't been found yet in 2010, but it doesn't need much imagination to realise this is a serious possibility.) He would have had to make a serious attempt to conceal her.