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Split Thread David Gilroy: murder conviction goes to Scottish Review Commission

"but then why concentrate on Hell's Glen which isn't in the QEFP?"

The police should have found vegetation from the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park on the underside of his car if he went off road in the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area.
Maybe Gilroy did go to the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area but did not go off road.
If Gilroy wanted to divert attention from another area his plan could have been
to go to the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area and make sure he was seen.
Witnesses then contact police advising they saw a man in a suit acting suspiciously near a sliver car in the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area.
This prompts the search in the Hell's Glen and Glen Croe area whilst diverting
attention from the actual disposal site.
 
The problem is that he wasn't off-system for all that long. Time can pass very quickly when you're trying to do something like concealing the body of a strapping, healthy young woman who may have weighed around 150 lb.

He had to get to the place where he concealed the body, and he actually had to conceal it. We've looked at a number of possibilities and it's not a straightforward operation. To postulate that he also went somewhere else to lay a false trail, in that limited time, is a bit far-fetched to me. I'm not sure he was thinking all that coherently about the main operation, let alone working out how to lay a decoy trail.

It seems to me that we have so little definite information about his movements that the whole thing becomes guess and speculation. Presumably the CCTV sightings are reliable, as is his attendance at Lochgilphead in the late afternoon, but I don't think we have anything else. The sighting of the suspicious silver car may very well not have been him. No registration number was reported for that car. The vegetation evidence may not be reliable - I simply don't know how much weight one can put on that.

I still think Glen Aray hasn't had the consideration it warrants.
 
Gilroy could have been cleaning the car of all traces of the body (which he successfully did as no trace of Suzanne was found in the car boot) when he was spotted in the Glen Croe forest area in the afternoon or when he was spotted near Ben Donich in the evening.
If Gilroy drove from the junction of the A819 and A83 at Inveraray to here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.1...25.553497&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656
Then drove on Donich Park, which is a road with numerous potholes, he could be heading for the eastern side of Loch Goil to look for a disposal site.
Then on the way back to Inveraray after disposal he stops just off the B828 here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.2...99.580246&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656
and cleans the car boot of all traces of the body as he does not want to clean the boot
at the disposal site in case he gets seen and a police search ensues.
He has time to do this and return to Inveraray in both the missing time periods
The forest around Lochgoilhead has never been mentioned as a search area
but Creag Chaise looks promising
https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/56.17120,-4.89463,17
 
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We don't know for sure that was actually him either time though, do we?

I thought Lochgoilhead was too far to be a reasonable location given the time needed to drive there and still leave time to find a suitable site, hide the body, and clean the car. It's also a long dead end which I don't think I'd want to go down if I was trying to keep my options open.

But I need to think through what you've just suggested. It's interesting.
 
In order to get to Creag Chaise you would have to drive on the Cowal Way walking route.
A more likely disposal site would be Inveronich.
Drive from the B839 on the potholed suspension breaking road called Donich Park
for 0.2 miles and you arrive at Inveronich.
(Google street view of Donich Park was recorded in July 2011)
The image shows a road going through Inveronich leading to a forest which could be the disposal site.
https://postimg.org/image/8a1uzgtz7/
Image taken from Canmore website
https://canmore.org.uk/site/search/result?SITECOUNTRY=0&view=map
Find Lochgoilhead then Inveronich then click aerial photography and zoom in.
 
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Assuming Gilroy did go to Inveronich between 13.23 and 15.51 during the journey between Green Welly Tyndrum and Royal Burgh Cafe Inveraray.
It took him 2 hours and 28 minutes to drive a 36 minute route. (based on average reconstruction time) between 13.23 to 15.51 = 148 minutes = 2 hours and 28 minutes.
148 minutes less 36 minutes leaves 112 minutes.
From the junction of the A819/A83 to the junction of Donich Park/Inveronich takes 30 minutes each way.
112 minutes less 60 minutes leaves 52 minutes for disposal.
Assuming Gilroy went to Inveronich between 18.58 and 21.08 during the journey between Royal Burgh Cafe Inveraray and Green Welly Tyndrum.
It took him 2 hours and 10 minutes to drive a 35 minute route .(based on average reconstruction time) between 18.58 to 21.08 = 130 minutes = 2 hours and 10 minutes.
130 minutes less 35 minutes leaves 95 minutes.
From the junction of the A819/A83 to the junction of Donich Park/Inveronich takes 30 minutes each way.
95 minutes less 60 minutes leaves 35 minutes for disposal.
In the afternoon he has 52 minutes and in the evening he has 35 minutes.
 

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Where do you think the damage to the suspension is likely to have happened, in that scenario?
 
The screenshots from Google earth show the condition of Donich Park as of July 2011.
Driving at speed on this road could cause suspension damage due to the amount of potholes.
Donich Park was resurfaced in September 2015.
 

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Go fast enough and that could do it, for sure.

I still think it's a long way off the direct route. If I'd been in his shoes I'd have wanted to stray as short a distance as possible from a plausible route to Lochgilphead, not just to maximise the time available to conceal the body, but to avoid the chance of my car being spotted somewhere absolutely incriminating.
 
How do we know for sure.

Hello im new here . How do we know for certain or what evidence is there that Gilroy drove past Inverary and on to the RABT (rest be thankful) area?



Is it only the phone mast pings? From what i have read these pings are unreliable.
 
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Go fast enough and that could do it, for sure.

I still think it's a long way off the direct route. If I'd been in his shoes I'd have wanted to stray as short a distance as possible from a plausible route to Lochgilphead, not just to maximise the time available to conceal the body, but to avoid the chance of my car being spotted somewhere absolutely incriminating.
Agree with that. No way is Gilroy going to be speeding and taking any chances of a crash.
He must have gone off the main route Tydrum to Inverary and i would like to know more about this Rest and be thankful theory.I would like to know why the cops think she is there and searched that area rather than elsewhere.
 
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“The gaps in Gilroy’s journey, and the foliage and debris on his car tell us that he went off road somewhere near to the Rest and Be Thankful, so anyone who was in that area on 5th May 2010 and could have seen or heard something that might be the missing link in our investigation.

http://www.scotland.police.uk/whats-happening/news/2018/march/new-appeal-suzanne-pilley-case

I also remember reading that the policeman in charge of the search (Gary Flannigan) said he was convinced Gilroy was in the Glen Croe/Ben Donich/Hells Glen area. Flannigan stated that during the interviews with Gilroy at the police station in Edinburgh he got the impression Gilroy was trying to divert police attention away from the Glen Croe/Ben Donich/Hells Glen area and Flannigan was unconvinced so thats where the search was made.
 
So basically all this Rest and be thankful stuff is based solely on the cops hunch that Gilroy was trying to divert them from that area.

Anyway thanks for the reply.
 
I'm really unsure about all that. I haven't seen the primary evidence for his movements and as far as I know his phone was off and the phone pings story isn't true. I don't think the vegetation thing is all that reliable, as it seems to me the vegetation analysis has placed Gilroy's car in at least one place it's very unlikely to have been. A witness saw a car parked somewhere which was thought to be his, but unless she got the number which I don't think she did, this sounds very speculative.

There is a post further back where the CCTV timings were given. As far as I remember there was a sighting at the Green Welly at Tyndrum, then the next one was on the shore road at Inveraray with a gap very much longer than it should have been. The cops think he doubled back to the Rest and Be Thankful from the west in that time, but I'm not persuaded there's definite evidence of that. The timing from Inveraray to Lochgilphead is about right so he didn't do anything in that time.

The weird thing about the way back is that he seems to have gone back via Inveraray and Tyndrum again, but then he's cut south via Ardlui down the west side of Loch Lomond and back east on the A811 through Drymen and Stirling. This is a strange route, and again there's a substantial period of time missing in about the same place as before.

If you look at both these routes, the Rest and Be Thankful and Hell's Glen are a fair detour, which cuts into the time available to dispose of the body. I still have a bit of a thought that the cops might be chasing a red herring in that area and maybe he didn't go so far from the direct route. But the newspaper reports aren't reliable about the evidence, and I'm not 100% which actual confirmed time spots there are and just why they were so sure about the Rest and Be Thankful.

The Lockerbie police were really sure about Malta, of course...
 
I have a friend who was consulted by Gilroy's family about the SCCRC application but my understanding is that he declined to support the application, or to give advice, I'm not sure exactly as he wasn't forthcoming about it. I really don't know if he made any study of the evidence but if he did he might say a bit more now that an appeal is (as I understand it) off the table. I confess I'd like at least to know what's confirmed and what's speculation.
 
The police said....

The CCTV timestamps are
Green Welly Tyndrum 13.23
Royal Burgh Cafe Main Street West Inveraray 15.51
Royal Burgh Cafe Main Street West Inveraray 18.59
Green Welly Tyndrum 21.08
then Gilroy switched his phone on at Ardlui at 21.34.

On the police Scotland website 'The gaps in Gilroy’s journey, and the foliage and debris on his car tell us that he went off road somewhere near to the Rest and Be Thankful'

This indicates that the 'foilage and debris on his car' was tested and found to be specific to the area around the Rest and be Thankful.

The 'foilage and debris' found on Gilroys car was from 'somewhere near the Rest and be Thankful.' which is within the Argyll forest park but the A819/A85 route from Inveraray to Tyndrum is not within Argyll forest park.

The image below shows the Argyll forest area

argyll forest circle.jpg
 
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I may be wrong about this, but I'm really not completely convinced that vegetation and/or soil analysis is reliable enough to justify concentrating exclusively on the Rest and Be Thankful / Hell's Glen area if it's the only piece of evidence you have for that.

The reports about a cell-phone ping around Glen Croe seem to be wrong. The report of someone seeing a car that might have been Gilroy's could be anything. Lots of silver cars around. Forgive me, but I have up-close-and-personal experience of the Scottish police becoming fixated on a particular place as being the clue to a particular crime, on pretty tenuous reasoning, when absolutely gobsmackingly clear evidence pointing to a different place was right under their noses all the time. And this could be another one.

The route he seems to have taken and these timings (plus the time he was known to be at Lochgilphead) are really all the concrete evidence there is. And that concrete evidence says somewhere between Tyndrum and Inveraray, in the Glen Lochy or Glen Aray area, to me. I'm astonished there's no evidence of a serious search round that location.

The gaps in the journey, both times, are between Inveraray and Tyndrum. Now, if you're going to hide a body in the Glen Croe, Glen Kinglas or Hell's Glen area, you simply don't go that way. The time you lose doubling back from Inveraray into the Argyll Forest, is unacceptable - possibly as much as an hour's extra driving both times. That's putting a serious crimp in the time available to conceal the body. There's also the possibility of being seen there, so far off the direct road to Lochgilphead he has ostensibly chosen.

When we discussed this earlier in the thread, we speculated that Gilroy was driving his usual route to Lochgilphead (nothing at all strange about going via Tyndrum), racking his brains as to where he could stash the body, and seeing a lot of the possible access roads into the forested area closed off by gates. Then he had a sudden brainwave about the area west of Arrochar where he knew somewhere that would be suitable, and decided to detour there even though it took him off his road and would cost quite a lot of time.

This doesn't stack up for the way back though. If he stashed the body there but still needed to do something to conceal it, or for whatever reason he needed to revisit the place, why do the senseless detour all over again? Why not simply go back over the Rest and Be Thankful and be done with it? Much less lost time to make it all look suspicious, and if that's the route he took - and again it's not an unreasonable route for that journey in itself - why then, it doesn't matter if his car's seen. Whereas if he's trying to pretend he went straight from Inveraray to Tyndrum, being seen in Glen Croe is a bit of a problem, if it happens.

And for goodness sake, look at the rest of the return journey. For some reason we don't really understand, he turned south-west at Crianlarich and went down the west side of Loch Lomond instead of taking the obvious route straight on through Lochearnhead to Stirling. This takes him back to within a very few miles of the Rest and Be Thankful, which is a hell of a weird thing to do if he's trying to draw attention away from there. It's almost a circle, for no apparent reason at all.

I'm speculating about whether the Rest and Be Thankful thing might be as big a red herring here as Malta was in the Lockerbie investigation. Similarly, the uninvolved student finds himself wondering, well, why on earth do they think the crime happened there, and did they even look at this huge pile of suggestive evidence pointing to the crime having happened in Heathrow (Glen Aray)? So forgive me if this is unjustified, but these guys have form.

In any case, the problems of disposing of a body are similar just about anywhere around there. Actually finding somewhere where you can take a car sufficiently off-road to be able to conceal it well enough. I'm a bit doubtful of this idea that he knew the Argyll Forest well from previous family holidays and suddenly thought of the perfect spot. And if that was what happened, why on earth retrace his route all the way back to Inveraray and up to Tyndrum, only to end up on the west bank of Loch Lomond, when he could have driven straight there in about ten minutes?

I don't know why he went Ardlui, Balloch and Drymen rather than Lochearnhead (going from Crianlarich to Stirling), but it probably doesn't add a huge amount of time to the journey. On the other hand, going from the Rest and Be Thankful to Tarbet via Inveraray (which he already passed through on his way from Lochgilphead), Tyndrum and Crianlarich, which is what the police theory has him doing, is completely insane.

On the other hand, if we discount the vegetation/soil analysis as possibly misleading and just look at the route, there are equally promising possibilities along the A85 or the A819, or the minor roads leading off these roads. Since there doesn't seem to have been a systematic search there at all, you'd be relying on the body being stumbled over by chance. And it's a big area. A sheepdog or a walker's dog might turn something up, but on the other hand it might not. Or the owner might call the dog away without going to see what it was investigating.

Just my thoughts, but I'm really not that enamoured of the Rest and Be Thankful theory if all they have is the vegetation and soil analysis.
 
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