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David Chandler forced NIST to admit "free-fall"

You can always go onto Architects and Engineers for 911 truth and bring up your points.

Let me know when you propose to go so I can sit back and watch you get ripped apart.

I need a good laugh.

Can you please tell me why all those architects and engineers support the following claim taken from the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth?

Symmetrical "structural failure" – through the path of greatest resistance – at free-fall acceleration

How can "symmetrical" be used to describe a building that first had the east part of it's penthouse and core columns collapse, followed by the remaining penthouse, followed by the outer facade walls?
 
You can always go onto Architects and Engineers for 911 truth and bring up your points.

Let me know when you propose to go so I can sit back and watch you get ripped apart.

I need a good laugh.

I sent AE911T an invitation about a year ago to send a contingent of their structural & mechanical engineers that matter (along with anyone else who wanted) to come here & debate the issues - politely & professionally. I promised that I'd get the moderators to eliminate all the snark.

I suggested that they post duplicates of the discussions on their website.
Their response: "Nope".

I invited Chandler to do the same, years ago.
His response: "Nope".

Because teachers are amongst my favorite people in the world, I very, very strongly suggested to Chandler that he take his nonsense to competent, independent structural engineers, sit down with them & talk to them in detail about his numerous errors.
His response: "Nope".

Your reply to this...?
 
Please explain how a steel office tower covering an area approximately the size of a football field can 'naturally' suffer a fatal, global, and simultaneous loss of vertical support allowing it to drop like a brick in the open air, for 8 floors?

MM

Well one column fails due to heat so it's load is transferred to the adjacent columns, since they are loaded the additional load causes them to fail which transfers their load to adjacent columns until the whole floor fails.
 
I sent AE911T an invitation about a year ago to send a contingent of their structural & mechanical engineers that matter (along with anyone else who wanted) to come here & debate the issues - politely & professionally. I promised that I'd get the moderators to eliminate all the snark.

I suggested that they post duplicates of the discussions on their website.
Their response: "Nope".

I invited Chandler to do the same, years ago.
His response: "Nope".

Because teachers are amongst my favorite people in the world, I very, very strongly suggested to Chandler that he take his nonsense to competent, independent structural engineers, sit down with them & talk to them in detail about his numerous errors.
His response: "Nope".

Your reply to this...?

Excuse me I have a video here of Chandler directly asking questions to NIST.

Are you suggesting that NIST aren't competent independent structural Engineers?
 
Excuse me I have a video here of Chandler directly asking questions to NIST.

Are you suggesting that NIST aren't competent independent structural Engineers?

Did NIST answer the questions?
Did Chandler accept the answers?
 
Did NIST answer the questions?
Did Chandler accept the answers?

Well you saw (or maybe you're one of those who refuses to look at any rebuttals to your theory) that Steven Jones asked a question where they said they (NIST) would review the text in the final draft document. In the final draft document NIST changed the wording.

Sorry to point this out to you but in the scheme of things you don't matter.

Attacking the conclusions of NIST does matter. It is after all an essential part of the scientific process.

Campaigning for a New Enquiry does matter.

All that is said on here by YOU and ME is useless tack.

It is pointless hacking at the branches, it is the trunk that needs to be felled
 
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Did NIST answer the questions?
Did Chandler accept the answers?
Well you saw (or maybe you're one of those who refuses to look at any rebuttals to your theory) that Steven Jones asked a question where they said they (NIST) would review the text in the final draft document. In the final draft document NIST changed the wording.
...

Sorry, there's a disconnect between my question and your reply

a) the hilited part - perhaps just a blunder on your part

b) you didn't actually answer the questions. Please answer them now:
Did NIST answer the (Chandler's) questions?
Did Chandler accept the answers?
 
But the main roof of the building went instantly into free fall from a stable position.

659040095.png


Stage one is contrived to fit their (NIST's) 5.4 second model

LMAO.

So, it is unmistakeable that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

1. The curve that you cite PROVES that the building did NOT go into instant free fall. The curve proves that the building does exactly the opposite of what you claim.

2. There is absolutely zero reason to depend on anything that NIST says on this issue. Anybody can do the measurement for themselves.

3. The measurements (done competently) prove that what you say about the Stage 1 data being "contrived" is also unquestionably, pathetically wrong.

It fell in free fall for the equivalent of 8 floors.

Uhh, nope. Sorry. It did not.

It fell APPROXIMATELY at free fall acceleration for that length of time.

A more careful examination of the data, analyzed correctly, shows that it fell "AT freefall acceleration" for ZERO sustained interval of time. Instead it passed thru 1G 4 times.

The bottom eight floors had been taken away by explosives.

Silent explosives, eh??

I'm sure that you can provide any evidence for such a thing.

Stage 3 is understandable because even after 104 feet of free fall the structure would hit resistance of floors already collapsed and air resistance which increases with the speed of the fall. (Drag)

So we can add "drag" into the concepts that you don't understand in the slightest.

The drag on any/all components produced an absolutely negligible, insignificant force on any components. Therefore drag forces had insignificant effects on the acceleration of fall time of the parts of the building that you mistakenly think are the whole building.

Notice it says VELOCITY COMPUTED NUMERICALLY for the black dots i.e. Not by observation

LMAO. You really don't have a clue what is going on in any of this analysis, do you??

It's pretty amusing to see you write a bunch of abject, laughably incorrect crappola with such assertiveness and confidence.

The fact that your claims are all wrong makes it all the more delicious...

Chandler's observed analysis

Like you, Chandler is an abject, incompetent amateur.

You may notice that a collapsing building, with thousands of interconnected parts bears no resemblance to "a ball falling in a vacuum". Or even one falling in air.

You see, it turns out that simple, remedial physics (the only kind that they teach in high school) has pretty close to nothing to do with structural engineering (the field of expertise necessary to understand the complex interactions of a collapsing structure).

A competent physics teacher would know that the fundamental assumption built into the equations that Chandler used is the assumption of a "falling isolated body". In other words, a body with no forces other than gravity acting on it. In further words, a body with nothing else touching it, & thereby exerting forces upon it.

A competent physics teacher would immediately recognize that the structure of a collapsing building completely violates this cornerstone assumption, rendering his conclusions, based upon erroneous assumption, invalid.

A competent, educated person in ANY technical field would have possessed the humility to understand that he was dicking around outside of his field of expertise, and would have taken his (fatally flawed) analysis to competent experts in the pertinent field & gotten their opinions before humiliating themselves in public.

Chandler wasn't even this competent. Even after all of the above was pointed out to him (by me, amongst many others) early in his delusional postings on this matter.

It's not surprising in the slightest that you find his work so compelling.

After all, you are exactly as incompetent an amateur as Chandler is.

Prove me wrong. Explain to me where you got your structural engineering degree & how many decades you've been practicing...
 
In discussing any movement in the building prior to free fall

I would suggest that you factor in this piece of evidence

Watch the lamp post in the foreground.

Hahahaha
The video is titled "*AUDIO* OF EXPLOSION JUST BEFORE WTC BUILDING 7 FELL". It begins with several repeats of the seconds around the start of the fall WTC7 - and there is no audio of explosion there! Did you notice?

Goes on with Craig Bartmer. He describes how the collapse started, how things start hitting the ground, and how that sounds: "thoomp thoomp thoomp". Why does he describe that sound in conjunction with stuff hitting the ground? Shouldn't he hear the explosions first - before the collapse started? Bartmer is actually a witness AGAINST explosive demolition - just because he is a non-expert, he misinterprets what he witnessed.

Hillarious Dick Gage - look very closely:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPETuvLUtRM&t=4m14s
That's a side-by-side comparison of WTC7 with a known CD. Do you see what I see?
In the known CD, we see several flashes of explosions, in WTC7 we don't! :D


Gage goes on about how WTC7 went into its footprint.
Well is that true? Did WTC7 drop nicely into its footprint, cromleckderennes? Can you commit to a YES or a NO here?

Oh, at 5:12 at outright lie: He shows video stills of the building dropping all the way out of sight and claims a plot of the event "fits the free-fall curve almost perfectly". It doesn't. It simply doesn't - not for the duration of the event as pictured in that scene.

Not bothering to go further through this crap ;)
 
I do hope you're not interpreting your own smoothed acceleration trend profile too literally :D

This is pretty funny.

First, you don't even know how to say it.

It is not called "deriving".
It's not called "performing a derivation".
It's called "taking a derivative".

Second, you don't know how to do it.
ALL of your velocity & acceleration curves are fundamentally, trivially, "seemply" wrong.

So, if you want to stop making a fool of yourself, you should go take a high school calculus class.

Then get back to us with your penetrating observations clownish commentary about the issue.
 
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For what it's worth, I don't think femr2's derivations are particularly valid, and see the fundamental problems tfk has with them.

On the other hand, femr2 has a point about them showing "trends", and that is "good enough" for my purposes.

I propose you both try to agree to disagree; you could have a lot in common, and remember: the enemy of your enemy is your friend! :D



tfk, I think there is a lot of Chandler, Szamboti, Grabbe and Talboo nonsense to attend to - why don't you?
 
For what it's worth, I don't think femr2's derivations are particularly valid, and see the fundamental problems tfk has with them.
Hopefully tfk will soon reach an "aha" moment regarding his misinterpretation of my velocity and acceleration plots.

His ridiculous and offensive post...

here

...illustrates his problem perfectly, namely his assumption that the plots are of a continuous function. They are not.

Perhaps you'll beat him to it. It's not difficult to understand the nature of the data post Savitzky-Golay filter.

On the other hand, femr2 has a point about them showing "trends", and that is "good enough" for my purposes.
They show little else but trend. Folk suggesting they show instantaneous acceleration, and even "passed thru G 4 times" based directly from their own acceleration plot (which CLEARLY is affected by underlying function order) are going to lead you in unwise directions. I suggest more caution.

I propose you both try to agree to disagree
tfk is master of "the sky is blue" syndrome I'm afraid.
 
... They show little else but trend. Folk suggesting they show instantaneous acceleration, and even "passed thru G 4 times" ...
Your depiction of acceleration is the actual acceleration, it is filtered and flawed.

Does this mean WTC 7 passed thru G 4 times as a system? What a limited insignificant study; why NIST did not waste time and assets on this topic? Nonsense.

David Chandler adopted delusional claims of CD based on nothing. Chandler did not force anyone to do anything.

What was the topic?
Why do "truthers" continue to make this claim? I've been re-reading the "draft" version of NCSTAR 1-9 and have seen several references to this portion of the collapse. Chapter 12 for instance has several (including graphs).


Where did this "forced to admit" come from?
It is fantasy, 911 truth lies. The topic is not about filtering data to make it look like music. It is about the failure of a few fringe nuts who think 911 was an inside job, a search for the Satan like bad guys, who made NIST make up an illusion of a gravity collapse.

What want-to-be-engineer will explain the overall system collapse. They can't, and there is no reason to study the collapse past the "failed" NIST study. It becomes silly to study the facade, as the interior is falling. Makes the study of the facade nonsense. T0 could be assigned at the time the interior starts to collapse. Leaves those who use observation in the dust of computer models, and reality.

Did he force NIST? 911 truth will say yes, and they think 911 was an inside job, a real CD deal.
 
Your depiction of acceleration is the actual acceleration
It's an indication of the acceleration. The trend. It should be a reasonable estimation, but it's not going to be "actual".

Does this mean WTC 7 passed thru G 4 times as a system?
You are talking about tfk's silly assertion. Did you not notice ? :)

T0 could be assigned at the time the interior starts to collapse.
It could, but it would be pointless to do so if the intent is to inspect the acceleration behaviour of the North facade, obviously.
 
Your depiction of acceleration is NOT the actual acceleration, it is filtered and flawed.

Which means, ... nothing, yet, it remains, David did not force NIST to do anything. The force NIST stuff was 911 truth propaganda.
 
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The only references to 'free fall' in the final report are three usages of the phrase on the one page where it is shown the rate of fall was about half the speed of free fall.
 
You can always go onto Architects and Engineers for 911 truth and bring up your points.

Let me know when you propose to go so I can sit back and watch you get ripped apart.

I need a good laugh.

A point that equally applies to AE911T coming here.

Yes they do, it's called YouTube. I saw chris sarns there the other day :D

,,,,,,,,,,,,and in fact here is one member of AE911T that was proud enough and ballsy enough to come to this very forum where,,,, he was roundly ripped apart and eventually laughed at for his claims.

Now Mr. Sarns is a construction carpenter and perhaps not the most educated member of an organization that titles itself "Architects and Engineers...". A couple of actual engineers have come here and discussed this with actual engineers here but I do not recall if Gage himself has ever deigned to grace us with his presence.

So before you go off on people here as if this is all new to members here perhaps you might consider that your suggestions have all been dealt with in the past.
 
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