Cult Archaeology

Joshua, if the Hebrews/Jews were never the slaves of the Egyptians, is there evidence they were enslaved at all and if so, where? Also, if they were never in Egypt, where did the story of Moses come from?
 
What's up with Kennewick man? He was new news when I was an anthro major in college, but I've only caught up with recent news once in a while. Is he part of a different migration of people unrelated to the paleo-siberians?
 
Doghouse Reilly said:
I heard as a child about a long hall or tunnel (I have no idea where or from what era, only that it was somewhat ancient) that was specially constructed to allow people to whisper from great distances and still be heard. Does this sound like something you've ever heard of?

It sounds similar to a place called the Hypogeum of Hal Seflieni. It has a room, called the "oracle room", with a specially carved subchamber. You speak into the subchamber's opening, and your voice reverberates through the entire complex like the command of an angry god. You have to speak into it, though, not whisper. I've got a thread about the Hypogeum ]here. That's the best I can do with that claim, I'm afraid.

Doghouse Reilly said:
Also, is there any archeological evidence for the claim that there used to be red haired people in South America, who possibly came from Polynesia (maybe Easter Island?
I apologize for the somewhat vague nature of my queries, and appreciate any time you have to share whatever you may know regarding these topics.

Mummies with red hair have been found in South America (although none of them, to my knowledge, date to particularly ancient periods); and there are arguably red-haired natives on Easter Island. The assertion usually goes that the people of Easter Island had come from South America (rather than the other way around). This explanation has been proven at least theoretically possible by Thor Heyerdahl's famous Kon Tiki boat ride - but is otherwise unsubstantiated. So, the "case", as they say at the Yard, remains open.
 
Dragonrock said:
Joshua, if the Hebrews/Jews were never the slaves of the Egyptians, is there evidence they were enslaved at all and if so, where? Also, if they were never in Egypt, where did the story of Moses come from?

Is there any proof that they were enslaved - no. The Hebrews have at several times been subjugated, however. The history of the Israel region is a chain of flip-flops, with the Hebrews alternatingly ruling and being conquered. Archaeological evidence suggests that the Hebrews were never violently conquered - they battled occasionally when it was practical and winning was possible, but if the foe were too great, they became very passive and merely outlasted their subjugators. It is interesting to note that although none of the "ruling civilizations" ever had clashes or conflict with the Hebrews, all of those powerful empires - the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans - are long gone, while the Hebrews are ever-present!

I really couldn't tell you where the story of Moses comes from. I can tell you that if it is based on a real person, it is almost certainly exaggerated. According to the relevant religious text, Moses was 80 years old when he led the Exodus, and wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. While that may be possible, it is not very probable.
 
Hexxenhammer said:
What's up with Kennewick man? He was new news when I was an anthro major in college, but I've only caught up with recent news once in a while. Is he part of a different migration of people unrelated to the paleo-siberians?

Different tests have concluded that the Kennewick Man lived sometime between 9510 and 9320 B.P., and most likely lived his entire life within the region where he was found. This makes him too young to have been a part of the migration from Siberia.

As it stands, the date for the migration from Siberia has been pushed back a great deal, perhaps as far as 20,000 years ago (as opposed to 10,000 - 17,000 B.P), due to the finding that the Ushki Lake settlement (proposed "jump off" point for the Siberians) is contemporary with Clovis, the earliest North American settlement. It's unlikely that humans would've gotten from Siberia to New Mexico in 400 years. Although physically possible, it wouldn't leave any time for the settlement of the Northwest.

You can check out the National Park Service's Kennewick Man page here. If you don't want to slog through all the reports, just read the NPS's press releases on the topic; they summarize things nicely.
 
There are hints of racism evident in his works as well - the Africans and South Americans must've had help from beyond, yet enigmas in white Europe, such as Stonehenge, draw very little attention from von Daniken.

HINTS of racism? The whole thing is one long "those brown people couldn't POSSIBLY have known that...". My favorite Daniken claim (from "Gold of the Gods", I think), is that an ancient Mayans (or Incas?) couldn't know how a human skeleton looked like because they didn't have X-ray machines; therefore, depictions of skeletons in their paintings are "proof" of extraterrestrial visitation.

No, I'm NOT making this up.

This was a drastic morphing of the Atlantis mythos - according to Plato (our only historical point of reference for Atlantis), Atlantis was destroyed by the gods for being unfaithful and thuggish. Notice how the message is warped. Plato intended the Atlantis story to serve as a parable of how pride can be disastrous when given free reign.

Which goes to show the very common phenomena of pseudo-"experts" on paranormal issues that never actually bothered to check out what the "evidence" they themselves used is...

By the way, in a recent NEW YORKER article, Egyptian archeologists got so annoyed at "new age" tourists that come to gawk at the pyramids while mumbling about "energies" and "cosmic harmonies" that they started to call them "pyramidiots".
 
Dorian Gray said:
1) How did the guy build the Crystal Palace?

According to this website, the Crystal Palace (which no longer exists) seems to have been built from iron and glass in a relatively straightforward and unmysterious manner. Are you perhaps referring to something else?

Dorian Gray said:
2) Explain the Bimini Road.

The Bimini Road is a formation of beachrock, a conglomerate which is formed when chemicals found in seawater, with help from wave action (which occurs on beaches, of course) and oxidation, "cement" sections of sub-strata sand into a rock-like material. Over time, the rock continues to contract, fracturing naturally into regular sections. Core samples taken from several "seperate" stones in the Bimini Road clearly show shared striation between adjacent sections, and consistent strata and slope orientation, which basically means that the stones formed exactly where you see them today.

Dorian Gray said:
3) Where is Atlantis?

I don't think there really was an Atlantis as such...see my link in an above post.

Dorian Gray said:
4) Why are there no remnants of the Saurian civilization?

My first guess would be because there was no Saurian civilization. I would like to elaborate; however, my googling attempts reveal nothing but references from RPG sites.

Dorian Gray said:
5) Where are the huge bits of the moon from when it rammed into the earth?

Current theories have the moon spinning off of the earth in the latter's formative stages. I don't ever remember hearing a theory about the moon and earth having a collision.

Dorian Gray said:
6) What is contained in the Hall of Records under the Sphinx?

So far no such hall has been found - this despite active attempts to find any voids under the Sphinx with ground-penetrating radar. To date, there's nothing down there. As an aside, there's nothing in ancient Egyptian literature which suggests the existence of such a chamber.

Dorian Gray said:
7) Where are the records of the aliens who helped Egyptians build the Pyramids?

There are none; again, this suggests there was no such help.

Dorian Gray said:
8) Where are the records of Atlanteans, specifically regarding pyramids, aliens, crystals, zero-point technology and submerged artifacts?

If Atlantis really existed, the records would all have been submerged in the flooding and are probably long gone. Of course, I don't really subscribe to the existence of Atlantis anyway, so I don't expect any evidence to be found. I would love to be proven wrong - there are a great many real archaeologists who would also love to be proven wrong about it.

Dorian Gray said:
9) Have you ever visited this site, the source of most of my questions?
www.atlantisrising.com

If you like cult archaeology, this site will be like your Paradise.

I have, but I'm unimpressed. Especially when they start giving psychics' wild and unsupported theories more credibility than field archaeologists who actually handle the stuff they're talking about.
 
Dragonrock said:
Joshua, if the Hebrews/Jews were never the slaves of the Egyptians, is there evidence they were enslaved at all and if so, where? Also, if they were never in Egypt, where did the story of Moses come from?

Apparently (and I haven't actually researched this myself), according to one of my Arky profs, Josephus chronicled numerous 'Moses' stories (Moses the leader, Moses the quiet family man, Moses the ineffectual, etc), the Exodus happened to be the one that made it into the Bible.

Although at one point there were people of Syrio-palestinian descent in Egypt, but not 2.5 million of them, and they weren't a massive slave force.
 
Hexxenhammer said:
What's up with Kennewick man? He was new news when I was an anthro major in college, but I've only caught up with recent news once in a while. Is he part of a different migration of people unrelated to the paleo-siberians?

A recent BIG victory in court for science over ignorance on this one. About a month or so ago. I'll try to find a link. Needless to say, for once the "good guys" won!
 
where to begin...

this is my first post on this forum and i have been lurking around for a while and found this thread (which btw should really be called pseudoarcheology but anyways... )
many of you have most excellent questions and i have seen many of them answered quite comprehensively, but if this thread leaves you wanting more i highly recommend that you check out the hall of maat whose basic mission statement is to weigh the evidence for alternative history... they have lots of great articles and book reviews and a message board that has great people and lively discussion...
i am not saying this because i have to or because i get any sort of benefit but because i think that some here would enjoy the site and hopefully it can answer any questions that have not been answered in this thread... and because that site got my critical thinking muscle going which eventually led me here... lol

zanna :)
 
Joshua Korosi said:


Well I really must apologize, AtomicMutant, but that question is out of my perview.

Archaeology's playing field extends from the present back until the dawn of civilization - that is, the era in which men began building permanent settlements, learned domestication/agricultural/industrial methods, and so forth. The earliest such settlements we can find date back to possibly around 7000 BC at the earliest. Anything involving humans before that becomes the property of Biological Anthropology. The age of the dinosaurs ended, on the other hand, around 66 million years ago, and is the property of Palaeontology. Even if we use the earliest humanoid apes as our starting point (around 200,000 years ago, apparently), there's still quite a time gap to cover - and I wouldn't be the one to cover it. You'd have to talk to a palaeontologist. :(

However, I've heard it through the grapevine that the Paluxy River "manprints" are actually the footprints of a three-toed bipedal dinosaur.
First of all I would like to thank you for this thread, archaeology suffers from the many claims by woo woo people.
Then again I feel compelled to correct the above statement, but maybe it's just my European point of view.
The playing field of archaeology is the human ancestry from where it split off from the ancestor we share with the apes (according to biologists some 7 million years ago). The mesolithic/neolithic transition you declared the touchstone of archaeology is one of the great questions and will be for a while. Schöningen is archaeology.
 
Joshua:
Are you perhaps referring to something else?
Perhaps. I'm talking about the house/residence/castle thingy involving heavy stones that weighed tons that some old man supposedly built by himself. It's in Florida, I believe. I have the name wrong, obviously.

I have been a member of that site for 3 years. I have enjoyed debating with the people who say:
)humans live on Venus and Mars
)the moon landing was faked
)the moon has a breatheable atmosphere
)the moon and every planet/planetoid has to have an atmosphere or it will explode
)There is some hall of records under the Sphinx
)Humans were created by a saurian/reptilian race called the Annunaki to mine gold on Earth. Humans are half-ape/half-Annunaki genetically engineered creatures.
)The end of the world is here, because everyone has black marks on their foreheads and that must be the mark of the Beast! (from a woman in her 50s who had apparently never heard of Ash Wednesday)
And more such woo. The woo goes on and on there.
 
Dorian Gray said:
Joshua:
Perhaps. I'm talking about the house/residence/castle thingy involving heavy stones that weighed tons that some old man supposedly built by himself. It's in Florida, I believe. I have the name wrong, obviously.

The Coral Castle, in Homestead, Florida, was built single-handedly by one Edward Leedskalnin from Latvia. Ed was around 33 when he began construction on the complex in 1920. Although Coral Castle wouldn't exactly qualify as an archaeological mystery, I shall touch briefly upon it.

Over 95% (roughly) of the sites you will encounter while doing a web search for the Coral Castle will be mystical in nature. Some of them promote a few glaring misconceptions, embellishments or omissions, and of course similar sites simply copy and spread the misinformation (since they all get their information from each other anyway). A good example of the sort of bad information you can get comes from the very first site you'll get by searching "Coral Castle" on Yahoo.

By way of example, one of the things that is expounded by sites which allege Ed possessed magical mystical neato powers is the fact that when Ed came to America from Latvia, his formal education was only equivalent to around the fourth grade. The unspoken yet painfully obvious implication here is that Ed was simply too stupid to be able to conceive of any scientific or mechanical means of doing what he did, and of course that's not true; because somebody's formal education ends at one point does not mean they stop learning. Indeed, Ed was remarkably intelligent, and he eagerly educated himself with his spare time. He studied books and learned from them - which leads us to the next mystical claim often touted by such sites; namely, that Ed was "often seen to study books about magnetism and cosmic forces". The implication here is that Ed learned and was subsequently able to tap into some obscure natural cosmic energy source to do his work. Oddly, you hear this sort of claim a lot...that by studying old library books, people unlock the secrets of mysterious and powerful energies. Well, if that's all it takes, then I'll see you at the library. Meanwhile, I don't know how many books about "cosmic forces" were around in the 1920's, but it is a fact that Amazing Ed used the knowledge gained from reading books about electricity to built his own AC generator. Mystical!

Some of these sites put forward completely unsubstantiated claims, without even bothering to attempt to qualify them, as if you're just supposed to believe them. The above-linked site is a prime example. Check out these bits of info...

Some teenagers spying on him one evening claimed they saw him "float coral blocks through the air like hydrogen balloons," but no one took them seriously. If their testimony can be believed, they were the only witnesses to the construction of Coral Castle.

You get this problem a lot, with many different claims on many different topics. It makes for a nice addition to an article - throw in some anonymous passerby who just happened to be driving down the road, and all the sudden you've got all the proof you need for a mystical explanation. Deus ex Machina. Who are these "teenagers"? Who heard their story and decided not to take them seriously? Look around...there's no evidence to support this claim at all; it may as well have been made up - and knowing what FATE will publish, it probably was.

He never shared the secret of its construction with anyone, saying only that he had rediscovered the laws of weight, measurement, and leverage used by the Ancient Egyptians, and that these lost principles somehow involved the relationship of the Earth to certain positions of the heavenly bodies.

Leedskalnin is quoted as saying, "I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids. I have found out how the Egyptians and the ancient builders in Peru, Yucatan, and Asia, with only primitive tools, raised and set in place blocks of stone weighing many tons."

These two paragraphs are almost just fine. They are entirely accurate, except for the claim thrown in at the end of the first paragraph. Weight, measurement, leverage - he made those claims, but Ed has never been quoted as saying these principles "involved the relationship of the Earth to certain positions of the heavenly bodies". Not only that, but considering Ed worked every single night for 20 straight years to build his castle, it doesn't make sense that Earth's "relationship" to certain positions of the heavenly bodies should be involved, because no heavenly body keeps its position every night for 20 straight years.

Even the purpose of Coral Castle was deliberately obscured. When asked why he assumed such an enormous undertaking, Leedskalnin smilingly explained that it was built entirely for his "Sweet Sixteen," Agnes Scuffs, a woman he once asked to wed, but who never left Latvia, where she married even before he arrived in Florida. Revealingly, he never contacted Agnes after coming to America. He seems to have used this tale to politely put off unwanted curiosity.

Ed was actually engaged to Agnes Scuffs, and she called off the wedding the day before it was supposed to take place. That was actually the reason Ed left Latvia; and it wasn't just an "excuse", he was very insistent that the Coral Castle was built for Agnes.

And lastly,

He was born in 1887 into a farming family at Stramereens Pogosta, a small village near Riga, Latvia, but emigrated to North America before the outbreak of World War I.

This is important, because the answer may speak closely to the real "mystery" behind the Coral Castle. The above quoted statement is simply wrong. Ed was born in 1887 near Riga, to be sure...but not to a "farming family". Ed Leedskalnin came from a family of stone masons.

If you want some entertainment, find some way to get a hold of the Coral Castle episode of In Search Of.... The people interviewed on that show go as far as insisting that Ed could mentally "douse" for subterranean deposits of coral, and there's a lovely "reinactment" where he raises a block from what looks like the middle of a grass field.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:


A recent BIG victory in court for science over ignorance on this one. About a month or so ago. I'll try to find a link. Needless to say, for once the "good guys" won!

A second big victory for the good guys!!! Just happened today. The question now is whether the loonies appeal to the SCOTUS.
 
I just read through this thread. Very Interesting:

I had a few comments on some of the comments:

Another city destroyed by Vesuvius
I think Herculaneum might be what the person that asked about that was thinking about. One interesting thing that I learned from this link was that they have discovered 1800-2000 paper scrolls there which they are having some success translating.
http://www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-011.html


Sea Peoples
I think it is widely believed if not accepted by archeologists that at least some of the Sea Peoples were the Philistines although it's not clear where the Sea Peoples who became the Phillistines came from.
http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/filist1.html

Moses
My own view on this is that the story is close to a complete fabrication. There is no archeological support for the key elements and the almost complete lack of contemporary Egyptian supporting documentation makes the story unlikely enough that from my perspective it is reasonable to think of it as false. Although, people from the area of Israel clearly emigrated to and from Egypt and it is likely that this provided the seed for the stories.

Does JK or anybody else have any comments on the Olmec heads? These are large (6 feet or so in diameter) that seem to have African features that were created by the Olmecs a people that are believed to have lived in what is Mexico from 1300 BC to 400 BC.

http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html
 
davefoc said:
Does JK or anybody else have any comments on the Olmec heads? These are large (6 feet or so in diameter) that seem to have African features that were created by the Olmecs a people that are believed to have lived in what is Mexico from 1300 BC to 400 BC.

http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html

These heads bear wide noses, and full lips; features traditionally associated with Africans. However, the Olmecs are not related to the Africans - other features, like round faces and skin tone, distinguish them.

olmec45.jpg


The Olmecs inhabited Mesoamerica, and their descendants can still be seen today. Here are some old photos of Olmec descendants:

http://www.geocities.com/conscious_mexicas/olmecpictures.html

It's interesting to note how these people can look very similar to the statues, and yet not very much like Africans. Though they have some similar features, it is simply a fascinating coincidence.
 
Actually Iconoclast, your question reminded me of something.

There is a theory, originally proposed by Robert Bauval and expounded by Graham Hancock, that the pyramids of Giza were intentionally organized to represent the belt of Orion, the easily recognizable star constellation. This was "proven" by superimposing the image of Orion's belt over an aerial photograph of Giza.

[qimg]http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Sirius.htg/airview.gif[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Sirius.htg/orionbelt.gif[/qimg]

Fit the two over each other, and they are quite compatible. There is a problem, however...

You see, the aerial photgraph of Giza is upside-down - that is, North is at the bottom and South is at the top; whereas the map of Orion is correctly oriented, with North at the top. If you were to actually stand on the Giza plateau and gaze southward over the pyramids as Orion rose above them, you would see that the angle is wrong - Orion's belt, from left to right, trails at an angle toward the north (toward you), while the pyramids trail off toward the south. This is a glaring error, and should effectively end the theory - but Bauval seems personally offended whenever his theory is questioned. See Hal Bidlack's sig... ;)
Part of the ancient Egyptian cosmology was that the Earth was a mirror image of the heavens. So, it is likely that 'North', in the heavens is going to be 'mirrored' as 'South' on the Earth.
 
This is the first time I've heard of the "mirror image" concept in Egyptian cosmology; nevertheless, for the sake of argument I will assume that it's true.

In such case, the pyramids still do not accurately reflect the sky. The "Orion's belt" comparison does not work if you simply vertically "flip" the landscape, as it would if the mirror image theory were true. You also need to make a horizontal flip (from east to west). Alternately, you can take the map and rotate it 180 degrees to achieve the desired layout. Either way, a "mirror image" of the Giza Plateau does not match Orion's belt; additional terrain manipulation is required. Thus, I would dismiss the mirror image claim.
 

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