Counterfeit Money Detection Pen?

[AmateurScientist]

I'm not saying that they will, what I am saying is, when they check the large bill, also take out the doctored $1 and show them how useless the pen is. This way you can play the little "spray the bill with starch" trick and not risk losing $100.

For what it's worth, I understood exactly what you meant.

AS

 

[xouper]

Pepper's Ghost: I'm not saying that they will, what I am saying is, when they check the large bill, also take out the doctored $1 and show them how useless the pen is. This way you can play the little "spray the bill with starch" trick and not risk losing $100.

Has it been established that there is any risk of losing the $100 bill if I pull this prank? If the cashier decides to confiscate my legitmate $100 bill under the mistaken notion it is phony, do I have no recourse at all?

 

[AmateurScientist]

Has it been established that there is any risk of losing the $100 bill if I pull this prank? If the cashier decides to confiscate my legitmate $100 bill under the mistaken notion it is phony, do I have no recourse at all?

My official legal opinion is that possession is 9 tenths of the law.

AS

 

[kookbreaker]

But your argument resembles the "why not let them sell homeopathic medicine? It can't hurt. It may help." The Type I error is extraordinarily high. The desktop counterfeiters can figure out how to get higher-grade, starchless paper. C'mon! And, as I said, this isn't the first filter. It is the only safeguard used. They are substituted for use of far more reliable detection methods.

No, first of all Homeopathy is completely useless. Whereas if little Jimmy has nothing to prevent him from using his cheap laserjet printer from making money, then the pen does come into play. Yes, desktop counterfeitters can use more expensive paper, but does that mean you have to discard the first line of defense?

Do you think, "Gee, I guess I won't bother to lock my door, becuase somebody can just break a window!". Does that make sense?

The consequence of getting it wrong is this: the one holding the bill when it is found loses that amount of money. Period. It is taken from you. Period. So the stores that don't train their people properly and rely on iodine simply set themselves up for losses.

You've never worked retail, have you?

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

Has it been established that there is any risk of losing the $100 bill if I pull this prank? If the cashier decides to confiscate my legitmate $100 bill under the mistaken notion it is phony, do I have no recourse at all?

Why take the chance? There is no telling what people are capable of, I'd rather lose $1 than $100.

 

[BillHoyt]

No, first of all Homeopathy is completely useless. Whereas if little Jimmy has nothing to prevent him from using his cheap laserjet printer from making money, then the pen does come into play. Yes, desktop counterfeitters can use more expensive paper, but does that mean you have to discard the first line of defense?

Do you think, "Gee, I guess I won't bother to lock my door, becuase somebody can just break a window!". Does that make sense?

You've never worked retail, have you?

As of the year 2000, the U.S. Secret Service estimated 45% of counterfeits were desktop counterfeits. If we assume all used starched papers, that means the pen's Type I error rate is 55%! The error climbs as we realize there are many starch-free 100% rag papers that can be used with computer printers. I can't yet find an estimate for how many desktop counterfeits use this paper.

Your first-line-of-defense argument evaporates, though, by watching the cashiers. If it passes the pen test, into the cash drawer it goes. There isn't an iota of effort to use any of the far more effective security measures (metallic ink, actually examining the print quality, the holographic and color-changing inks). This is clearly not the "first" line of defense. This is the only line! And we know from the Secret Service that it has, at a minimum a 55% failure rate.

Cheers,

 

[kookbreaker]

As of the year 2000, the U.S. Secret Service estimated 45% of counterfeits were desktop counterfeits. If we assume all used starched papers, that means the pen's Type I error rate is 55%! The error climbs as we realize there are many starch-free 100% rag papers that can be used with computer printers. I can't yet find an estimate for how many desktop counterfeits use this paper.

That 45% figure would be even higher if there was no use of pens. The pens act to discourage, same as locking your door. Yes it won't stop someone with determination, but it does prevent a lot of 12 year old Jimmy Inkstains from starting to make his own money. The pen assures that at least the laziest counterfietters can't make easy money. The more effort and knowledge needed to make better DT money, the harder it becomes. After all, just becuase you know bout the availability of starch-free paper, doesn't mean that young Johnny Inkstains knows about it. He can learn easily enough, sure, but its another barrier.

Your first-line-of-defense argument evaporates, though, by watching the cashiers. If it passes the pen test, into the cash drawer it goes. There isn't an iota of effort to use any of the far more effective security measures (metallic ink, actually examining the print quality, the holographic and color-changing inks). This is clearly not the "first" line of defense. This is the only line! And we know from the Secret Service that it has, at a minimum a 55% failure rate.
Cheers, [/B]

I'll ask again, have you ever worked a cash register?

 

[Eirik]

I wonder why no one uses the other method of testing current US bills, UV light. My understanding is that the nylon upnoting strip glows different colors under a UV lamp. I don't recall what they are, but that should be easy enough to check out. It would be trivial to use something like a Burton lamp (a pair of UV sources with a magnifying glass you look through) to check bills, and it could be done quickly. If there isn't an upnoting strip, you don't take the bill. And if the strip doesn't match the denomination, you don't take it.

If you design a tool like that well, to minimize exposure to the cashier, then you'd have a quick way to detect them.

 

[BillHoyt]

That 45% figure would be even higher if there was no use of pens. The pens act to discourage, same as locking your door. Yes it won't stop someone with determination, but it does prevent a lot of 12 year old Jimmy Inkstains from starting to make his own money. The pen assures that at least the laziest counterfietters can't make easy money. The more effort and knowledge needed to make better DT money, the harder it becomes. After all, just becuase you know bout the availability of starch-free paper, doesn't mean that young Johnny Inkstains knows about it. He can learn easily enough, sure, but its another barrier.

False dichotomy, kookbreaker. You assume the alternatives are pen or no pen. Counterfeit detection training would be far more effective. Desktop counterfeits are easily identified by inspection.

I'll ask again, have you ever worked a cash register?

Yes. What of it? I trust you weren't going for an argument from authority.

 

[Skeptoid]

Has it been established that there is any risk of losing the $100 bill if I pull this prank? If the cashier decides to confiscate my legitmate $100 bill under the mistaken notion it is phony, do I have no recourse at all?

If some cashier decided to confiscate the bill, they had better be prepared to involve law enforcement. Cop comes out, holds the bill up to the light, sees the security thread, sees the watermark, checks and verifies color-changing ink, hands you your bill, and tells the cashier not to rely solely on that stupid pen. You're exonerated on the spot. Case closed.

So, if you want to try this trick, make sure you're not in a hurry.

I'll bet cops just love these pens.

 

[kookbreaker]

False dichotomy, kookbreaker. You assume the alternatives are pen or no pen. Counterfeit detection training would be far more effective. Desktop counterfeits are easily identified by inspection.

Where the heck have made such a dichotomy, I am pointing out that that pens are hardly as worthless as folks seem determined to make them.

I really don't appreciate being accused of making a false dichotomy when I have not done so. Yes, other methods would be better, but they involve training and supervision to maintain. A pen is far, far from perfect, but sometimes it is all you can get your employees to do.

I'd appreciate a retraction.

Yes. What of it? I trust you weren't going for an argument from authority.

No, I'm going to point out that these 'easy' methods of detecting counterfieters sound fine on the drawing board, and are unworkable at the cash register. Particularly a high volume register.

 

[Luke T.]

How well does a desktop laser printer replicate the effect of the dual-colored numbers on bills? You know how the 20 looks green when you hold it one way, and black when you angle it.

There are all kinds of visual aids on the new bills. Seems the old eyeball would be a better detector than a pen.

 

[kookbreaker]

How well does a desktop laser printer replicate the effect of the dual-colored numbers on bills? You know how the 20 looks green when you hold it one way, and black when you angle it.

It wouldn't. But you'd be amazed at what is passed off as countierfiet money. Little details like that aren't always a requirement.

There are all kinds of visual aids on the new bills. Seems the old eyeball would be a better detector than a pen. [/B]

Sure it would. And you get to deal with the irate customers who are already offended by the use of the pen are now undergoing an angled inspection. Then the customer behind him is already getting impatient...

 

[Luke T.]

Sure it would. And you get to deal with the irate customers who are already offended by the use of the pen are now undergoing an angled inspection. Then the customer behind him is already getting impatient...

If I were a counterfeiter, I would just make sure all my counterfeit bills already had a conterfeit detector pen streak already printed on them....

 

[AmateurScientist]

If I were a counterfeiter, I would just make sure all my counterfeit bills already had a conterfeit detector pen streak already printed on them....

Luke,

You are quite the clever criminal.

Hmmmm......


AS

 

[Luke T.]

Luke,

You are quite the clever criminal.

Hmmmm......


AS

Can you imagine what would happen if we formed an organized criminal enterprise comprised of JREFers?

World domination!

 

[Mr. Skinny]

If I were a counterfeiter, I would just make sure all my counterfeit bills already had a conterfeit detector pen streak already printed on them....

Wait a minute........maybe I don't understand how these pens work, but doesn't the streak show up only if the bill is counterfeit?

 

[Luke T.]

Wait a minute........maybe I don't understand how these pens work, but doesn't the streak show up only if the bill is counterfeit?

I think they make a yellow streak if the bill is "good," and a black streak if the bill is "bad."

 

[BillHoyt]

Where the heck have made such a dichotomy, I am pointing out that that pens are hardly as worthless as folks seem determined to make them.

I really don't appreciate being accused of making a false dichotomy when I have not done so. Yes, other methods would be better, but they involve training and supervision to maintain. A pen is far, far from perfect, but sometimes it is all you can get your employees to do.

I'd appreciate a retraction.

I'll try to make it clearer. Your argument rests on the pen's ease of use (vs. training) and its ability (at no better than 55% level) to detect certain bad bills. You've also described it as a first line of defense.

But there is no second line of defense. The pen is the only line. And metallic ink detectors are readily available, easy to use, and cost under $50. (The pens cost $5). These work just as quickly as the pens.

I don't see that you've looked at the stats or really considered the alternatives. And I still await an explanation of "first line of defense" when there is no second line!

Cheers,

 

[AmateurScientist]

Wait a minute........maybe I don't understand how these pens work, but doesn't the streak show up only if the bill is counterfeit?

Well, no, not if you have it pre-printed on there, Skinny.

Jeez, get with the program.



I think Luke's idea is to trick them into not testing the bill because they would believe that it's already been tested.

AS