Counterfeit Money Detection Pen?

[BillHoyt]

I think they make a yellow streak if the bill is "good," and a black streak if the bill is "bad."

That's right. Unfortunately, the yellow streak fades rather quickly.

Cheers,

 

[Luke T.]

Well, no, not if you have it pre-printed on there, Skinny.

Jeez, get with the program.



I think Luke's idea is to trick them into not testing the bill because they would believe that it's already been tested.

AS

Right. Why spend money on expensive paper, when you can use the cheap stuff and just print a yellow streak on it?

Here you go, Mr. Skinny:


Counterfeit Detector Pen web site.

Millions of counterfeit bills circulate daily. Why run the risk of accepting a bogus bill? Our counterfeit money detector pen uses a specially formulated chemical that detects fake currency instantly. Simply press the tip of the pen to the bill. A yellow or clear mark shows that the bill is good; a brown or grey mark shows that the bill is suspect. It's that simple! Made in the U.S.A.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Well, no, not if you have it pre-printed on there, Skinny.

Jeez, get with the program.



I think Luke's idea is to trick them into not testing the bill because they would believe that it's already been tested.

AS

Yes AS, I understand that. However, if the pen worked the way I had been led to believe (clear if genuine, visible if counterfeit), then preprinting a mark on Luke's counterfeit bills would be self-defeating.

Or are you just trying to get a rise out of me? Hummmmm.

 

[kookbreaker]

I'll try to make it clearer. Your argument rests on the pen's ease of use (vs. training) and its ability (at no better than 55% level) to detect certain bad bills. You've also described it as a first line of defense.

No my arguement rest on the idea that just becuase the pen isn't perfect, does not mean they are useless. There's your false dichotomy.

Metallic ink detectors would be better, but they are expensive compared to pens, and they are battery powered. The pen is far from perfect, but I say again it prevents casual conterfeitting. Not someone who makes a career out of couterfeitting, but someone who 'for fun' or a few extra buck decides to scan and print money, then tries to pass it off on a tired clerk.

When I say "first line of defense" I mean it in the sense of locking the door to your house. Do you feel that the lock is useless because someone can break your window? Do you have a "Second line of defense"? in your home?

I have mentioned this several times, I'm rather stunned that you think I have not explained it.

 

[BillHoyt]

No my arguement rest on the idea that just becuase the pen isn't perfect, does not mean they are useless. There's your false dichotomy.

I never said they were useless. I said they have an extraordinarily high Type I error rate and that pranksters can easily hike up the Type II error rate as well.

Metallic ink detectors would be better, but they are expensive compared to pens, and they are battery powered. The pen is far from perfect, but I say again it prevents casual conterfeitting. Not someone who makes a career out of couterfeitting, but someone who 'for fun' or a few extra buck decides to scan and print money, then tries to pass it off on a tired clerk.

Perhaps you are missing the import of my "100% rag paper" comment? Go to any stationery store. It is easily available, not that much more expensive and goes through most desktop printers.

When I say "first line of defense" I mean it in the sense of locking the door to your house. Do you feel that the lock is useless because someone can break your window? Do you have a "Second line of defense"? in your home?

I have mentioned this several times, I'm rather stunned that you think I have not explained it.

I have four lines of defense in my home: locks, three 100+ pound dogs, security system and the police. Your only line of defense is not your first line. First implies the existence of a second. There is no second line in this case. The bad bill goes in the drawer and the problem is now the store's.

Cheers,

 

[Luke T.]

kookbreaker, don't you think the pens give a false sense of security, though? If a store is using the pens at the sacrifice of more effective methods like training their employees to recognize anti-counterfeiting measures already in place on the bills, aren't they actually risking being victimized more often by counterfeiters?

 

[AmateurScientist]

kookbreaker, don't you think the pens give a false sense of security, though? If a store is using the pens at the sacrifice of more effective methods like training their employees to recognize anti-counterfeiting measures already in place on the bills, aren't they actually risking being victimized more often by counterfeiters?

Of course. And this is just like the harm done by alternative medicine. It diverts attention away from actual remedies. Lost opportunities for actual help (or detection of counterfeits, in this instance) is the harm. It's not harmless.

AS

 

[kookbreaker]

I never said they were useless. I said they have an extraordinarily high Type I error rate and that pranksters can easily hike up the Type II error rate as well.

Yes they can.

Perhaps you are missing the import of my "100% rag paper" comment? Go to any stationery store. It is easily available, not that much more expensive and goes through most desktop printers.

Yes. But a lot of would be pranksters may not know how the pen works. Sure I know, you know. But a lot of folks may not (blame our education system. If Billy hasn't had some basic chemistry (or some advanced papermaking knowledge) he may not know enough to go get the rag paper.

I have four lines of defense in my home: locks, three 100+ pound dogs, security system and the police.

Fine for you, I however only have locks on my door.

Should I stop locking since the thief can break a window? There's your false dichotomy, as it is essentially what you are saying.

Your only line of defense is not your first line. First implies the existence of a second. There is no second line in this case. The bad bill goes in the drawer and the problem is now the store's.
Cheers, [/B]

The first line is the very idea that someone is checking the money by at least one method. Our hypotheitcal Billy decides to print some money on Mom's laserjet printer. He's not a hardened criminal, but he wants a free meal at Arby's. He takes his newmade cash down to the fast food heaven where he thinks the cashiers might not notice his funny money.

But while Billy is in line, he notices the guy in front of him has his bill checked with a pen. Billy startsd having second thoughts. Even if billy used Mom's rag paper, he begins to wonder if he can pull this off.

Now behind the counter, Julie is our cashier. She's taken a couple of bad bills in her time, and doesn't want to take any more. Then pen is far from perfect and she knows it. But it takes too long to check for watermarks since the lights in this Mall are very high. (I've actually checked this, BTW) and it s very hard to see the metallic inks colorful nature under the draining glow of the Mall's Mercury-Vapor lights that hum high up on the ceiling.

Maybe Julie is skilled at detecting funny money by feel. Maybe she isn't. Maybe she has asked for a metallc ink detector and has been refused by her tightwad bass since they already lose the pens as it is. julie would be careful the boss knows, but he can't trust those other bozos. Julie has had enough arguements with customers when she tries to check their money, and she's still annoyed at the swing that teenage counterfietter took at her when she thought his money felt fake. She uses the pen, it isn't perfect, but its quick and it solves a lot of problems.

Billy now has things to worry about. Even if his money passes will the cashier notice how it feels? Will the cashier notice later on that the money is fake and make the association between the nervous 12 year old kid and the funny cash? will they then spot him the next time he wants Curley fries? The answer to these questions is likely to be "no" and a hardened criminal would know that in an instant.

But Billy is not a hardened criminal, he a kid who thought for a moment that he could geta way with literally making a few bucks. So Billy steps out of the line and rethinks it, just like he rethought shoplifting a shirt the other day when he saw the security sensors at the door. There were a hunded ways to defeat those too, but suddenly the risk didn't seem worthwhile.

 

[BillHoyt]

Fine for you, I however only have locks on my door.

Should I stop locking since the thief can break a window? There's your false dichotomy, as it is essentially what you are saying.

You keep trying to put the false dichotomy on me, but I never said "they should stop using the pens and do nothing." When did I say that?

Let's look at your locked door example for a moment. It is the first line of defense. The second line are the police who may or may not catch the culprit with your possessions. The third line is your homeowner's insurance. That is why it is a first line; there are more behind it.

Cheers,

 

[kookbreaker]

You keep trying to put the false dichotomy on me, but I never said "they should stop using the pens and do nothing." When did I say that?

No, but you seem to be saying that since the pens are not perfect, therefore they are useless. That's where you have dichotomy. The truth is in between.

Let's look at your locked door example for a moment. It is the first line of defense. The second line are the police who may or may not catch the culprit with your possessions. The third line is your homeowner's insurance. That is why it is a first line; there are more behind it.

So stores have no police and insurance to protect them? If you report to police that someone is passing funny money around they will do nothing?

'scuse me while I

 

[BillHoyt]

No, but you seem to be saying that since the pens are not perfect, therefore they are useless. That's where you have dichotomy. The truth is in between.

I said, quite clearly, the type I error is minimally 55%. You may have translated that into "the pens are useless," but that is not what I said.

So stores have no police and insurance to protect them? If you report to police that someone is passing funny money around they will do nothing?

'scuse me while I

The police won't replace your bad money with good. Neither will insurance companies. Examine it a bit deeper, though, and it gets worse. Remember we're talking about the (minimally) 55% of bad bills that made it to your registers. You don't know who gave them to you. You didn't know they were bad when they were passed. You just suffered a loss, for which there is no compensation.

Cheers,

 

[kookbreaker]

I said, quite clearly, the type I error is minimally 55%. You may have translated that into "the pens are useless," but that is not what I said.

In this very thread you have also compared the pens with completely useless homepathy. Forgive me for drawing a conclusion from those two comments.

The police won't replace your bad money with good. Neither will insurance companies. Examine it a bit deeper, though, and it gets worse. Remember we're talking about the (minimally) 55% of bad bills that made it to your registers. You don't know who gave them to you. You didn't know they were bad when they were passed. You just suffered a loss, for which there is no compensation.

Be that as it may, are you aware of the store manager's maxim that the only thing that keeps some people honest is the fear of being caught?

Stores use security systems at the doors and tags on the clothing. There are a thousand ways that professional shoplifters can use to keep these things from. Should the store managers trash them because of these techniques? No, becuase those things are there to make casual theft harder. Just as the pens make casual conterfeitting harder.

I worked in a store with a backroom that, due to circumstances, had to be stocked with tons of small items. The shoflifting level was atrocious. We hooked up a camera with a live feed. It was completely imperfect. We never looked at the monitor, there were a hundred bins that things could be stolen that the camera wasn't pointed at. You could hide from the camera easily.

Yet shoplifting dropped about 50%. Why? because the demi-honest statyed honest under scrutiny. I belvei there's a line from Clerks that covered this. The pens are mostly in the habit of keeping people honest.

Is it sinking in now? A 55% failure rate is irrelevent if the attempt rate quadruples.




Cheers, [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[AmateurScientist]

You just suffered a loss, for which there is no compensation.

Except for a tax deduction at the end of the year. Not full compensation, but some cushioning of the blow to be sure.

AS

 

[BillHoyt]

In this very thread you have also compared the pens with completely useless homepathy. Forgive me for drawing a conclusion from those two comments.

Go back and read it again. I compared your remark with remarks made about homeopathy. I did not compare the pens with homeopathy.

Be that as it may, are you aware of the store manager's maxim that the only thing that keeps some people honest is the fear of being caught?

Stores use security systems at the doors and tags on the clothing. There are a thousand ways that professional shoplifters can use to keep these things from. Should the store managers trash them because of these techniques? No, becuase those things are there to make casual theft harder. Just as the pens make casual conterfeitting harder.

I worked in a store with a backroom that, due to circumstances, had to be stocked with tons of small items. The shoflifting level was atrocious. We hooked up a camera with a live feed. It was completely imperfect. We never looked at the monitor, there were a hundred bins that things could be stolen that the camera wasn't pointed at. You could hide from the camera easily.

Yet shoplifting dropped about 50%. Why? because the demi-honest statyed honest under scrutiny. I belvei there's a line from Clerks that covered this. The pens are mostly in the habit of keeping people honest.

Is it sinking in now? A 55% failure rate is irrelevent if the attempt rate quadruples.

Has it not sunk in to you that all of your points work equally for any deterrence and detection method? That, therefore, the question becomes a comparison between the Type I and Type II errors and then a cost/benefit analysis?

Think about that, and run an analysis contrasting a $5 pen with a 55% error rate and a $50 detector with a 10% error rate. It doesn't take too many circulating fakes to see the pen loses miserably.

Cheers,

 

[bpesta22]

Suppose the pen is 99% accurate at detecting counterfeit bills. I'd argue it's still a waste of money because the base rate for counterfeit bills in the money supply is probably tiny.

Again, suppose 1 in 1000 bills are counterfiet.

We test 100,000 bills with this pen.

Given my base rate, 99,000 of these bills will be legit.

Since the pen is 99% accurate, it will "ok" 99% of these bills, or 98,010 of them.

However, it will make a false positive on the remaining 990 of them.

For the 1000 bills that are counterfiet, it will correctly ID 990 of them as well (missing 1% of them).

Hence, even using this highly accurate pen, when the bill tests positive, there's only a 50% chance it's actually counterfeit.

If I've overestimated the base rate for counterfeit bills, then it's even worse-- even when the pen tests positive, it's more likely than not the bill is real!

 

[Ladewig]

One of the issues is that the pens cost money and the 5 virtually infallable ways to detect counterfeit money without any devices are free. But as kookbreaker pointed out all these methods require adequate light and some require good eyes.

1) color changing ink in the denomination
2) watermark which matches the portrait
3) plastic (not metalic strip) which

• fluoresces a different color for each denomination under UV light
• is located in different positions on each denomination
• includes the numerical description of the denomination within the strip (1 mm type)[/list=a]
  4) micro-printing (0.2 mm) on twenties in the denomination
  5) micro-engraving on portraits (especially backgrounds)
  
  I was able to spot a watermark in indirect light so that would probably be the surest way for cashiers to check the veracity of bills. If its too dark to check watermarks, then its probably too dark to count change.
  
  If you have a very strong magnifying device you can see the even smaller micro-printing around the bottom of the portrait on the twenties and within the denomination in the hundreds.

 

[kookbreaker]

Think about that, and run an analysis contrasting a $5 pen with a 55% error rate and a $50 detector with a 10% error rate. It doesn't take too many circulating fakes to see the pen loses miserably.

Until the cashier loses the $50 detector and it has to be replaced.

Oh, I'm sorry, were we not talking about the real world?

 

[xouper]

Here's how I see it:

1. It seems foolish to rely on the yellow pen to the exclusion of better methods of detection. Which is what many do.
   
2. Using the yellow pen is not any faster for the cashier than better methods of detection. In normally lit retail outlets (McDonalds, Sears, etc) it doesn't take any longer to eyeball the bill for the security features and to feel the paper.
   
3. The makers of the yellow pens are running a marketing scam on the retailers by giving them a false sense of security.

Has anyone seen any independent studies on the effectiveness of the yellow pen in actual retail environments? For example, at the end of the month, how many phony bills were caught by the yellow pen and how many were not? How many phony bills passed the yellow pen test? And compare this with other methods of detection. Are there any such studies? I haven't yet found anything on the web about this, but that may only mean I haven't looked in the right places.

As for the advice to tear phony notes in half, this goes against the advice from the Secret Service:

<div style="border: solid black 1px; margin: 0 32px 0 0; padding: 24px; background-color: #fff8f0;">If You Receive A Counterfeit

1. Do not return it to the passer.
   
2. Delay the passer if possible.
   
3. Observe the passer's description, as well as that of any companions, and the license numbers of any vehicles used.
   
4. Contact your local police department or United States Secret Service field office. These numbers can be found on the inside front page of your local telephone directory.
   
5. Write your initials and the date in the white border areas of the suspect note.
   
6. Limit the handling of the note. Carefully place it in a protective covering, such as an envelope.
   
7. Surrender the note or coin only to a properly identified police officer or a U.S. Secret Service special agent.

</div>So if I pull a prank on a cashier, tricking them into thinking the legitimate bill I handed them is phony, I should expect to wait for the police to arrive to settle the matter. Woe is me if the police officer has any uncertainty and decides to settle the matter "downtown". Where's Andalyn when we need him?

 

[xouper]

I found the following news item from last year. It's largely anecdotal, but perhaps instructive nonetheless. I highlighted some stuff with my own yellow pen, and inserted my own comments in red.

From: http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/Archive/2002/Nov%2702/n111902.htm

<div style="border: solid black 1px; margin: 0 32px 0 0; padding: 24px; background-color: #fff8f0;">Clerks checking for bogus bills

Anyone thinking about using counterfeit money when they shop at local stores had better think again, or they may be caught in the act.

With counterfeiting bills being found in the area recently, many merchants in Henry County and Martinsville are using a special felt-tip pen that can determine if bucks are bogus simply by making a mark on the money. The markers are used by checkout clerks who examine the money as soon as it is handed to them by customers.

<span style="background-color: #ffffcc">Mike Self, manager at the J.C. Penney Outlet Store at Liberty Fair Mall, said that if the mark turns yellow, the money is legitimate.</span> "But if it turns black, we know it's counterfeit," he said.

<blockquote>[xouper: This manager seems to be under the false impression that any money that passes the yellow pen test is legitimate. This one of the very real dangers of the marketing hype about this pen.]</blockquote>OfficeMax, also at the mall, sells the pens.

"We can't keep them in the store," said Assistant Manager Gloria Johnson. "They sell like hotcakes."

Both stores keep pens at each checkout. Johnson said her employees check all bills that customers give clerks. Self said that Penney's clerks check "larger denominations," but he declined to be more specific.

"Luckily I haven't found" a counterfeit bill at her store, Johnson said.

Self said that it is rare for Penney's to find counterfeit currency.

"We could probably count on one hand the number of times we've detected a counterfeit bill," he said. <span style="background-color: #ffffcc">But "for me as a store manager, (the pens) give me peace of mind."</span>

<blockquote>[xouper: Again, this reveals one of the very real dangers of relying on this pen. It lulls the manager into a false sense of security.]</blockquote>The Martinsville Police Department urges local stores to use the pens, said Lt. Gary Dove. <span style="background-color: #ffffcc">He also suggested that merchants and clerks feel the paper that bills are printed on, look at watermarks on bills through light, check the face of the president whose image is on the bills and check the line code to the left of the president.</span>

<blockquote>[xouper: Firstly, notice that this officer advises not relying solely on the pen. Secondly, I don't feel it's right that the police should be advocating the yellow pen as the primary tool of detection. I have yet to find the official position of the Secret Service on the yellow pen.]</blockquote>Citing police statistics, Dove said there have been eight counterfeiting cases involving cash reported in Martinsville during the past 21/2 months. That number of cases is about the normal amount to be reported during a year, he said.

"A lot of times they run in spurts," Dove said, adding that it looks like a perpetrator is targeting this area because several of the serial numbers printed on the fake money were identical or close.

Investigations into all of those incidents have been turned over to the Secret Service.

<span style="background-color: #ffffcc">"The pen has detected about all of the bills" </span>involved in these incidents, especially the ones generated by computer, Dove said.

<blockquote>[xouper: In other words, the yellow pen has not caught all phony bills. They don't actually say whether those bills passed the yellow pen test. Would it be too scary to admit that phony bills can pass the yellow pen test?]</blockquote>Most of the time, he said, counterfeiters make fake $20, $50 and $100 bills because it is easier to make money at those levels.

Dove recalled an incident a few years ago when someone paid for gas. <span style="background-color: #ffffcc">The attendant realized the bill did not feel like others so he got the vehicle's tag number and police solved the case.</span>

<blockquote>[xouper: This should be the first line of defense against phony bills generated by computer. The difference in the feel of the paper is quite obvious to anyone who is paying attention.]</blockquote>The lieutenant urges store clerks, if they believe counterfeit money has been passed, to observe what the person looks like and what the person is wearing, and to get a license tag number if possible.

"It's a tremendous help" to authorities who conduct the investigations, he said.</div>

I don't carry around a yellow pen with me for detecting phony bills. That's a waste of time. If a bill can pass my eyeball inspection, I feel confident it will pass a cashier's too.

 

[BillHoyt]

Until the cashier loses the $50 detector and it has to be replaced.

Oh, I'm sorry, were we not talking about the real world?

KayBee,

I can only conclude you're now being disingenuous. The detector is paid for when it catches three phony $20s. In the real world, many cashiers must pay up the store owner when their drawer comes up short. In the real world, many items are chained to the drawer or to the counter. I wonder if that might include the detector? I dunno. Just a thought.

Cheers,