Could somebody give me evidence that friction causes molten metal?

[William Rea]

I keep hearing that the molten metal at wtc was caused by friction.

I have never heard of this phenomenon and if true would be very interested to see the proof of this.

This is a genuine request for info.

Friction welding is a good example. It is used to attach turbochargers to shafts and is used extensively in aerospace for making connections with low distortion due to the very limited HAZ.

Friction may not always be immediately obvious to the eye, take for example internal friction in beams undergoing bending (notice how a beam being bent back and forth gets warm).

The only problem with this is that the inefficiency of the process would require sustained and high levels of energy. Possibly the already partially heated members would have enough initial energy to melt when subjected to this but I am not expert enough in the thermodynamics to calculate it for you.

 

[William Rea]

Regarding the OP...

I don't mean to sound, well, skeptical, but does it seem logical that someone with a master's degree in Mathematical Physics would have to ask if friction could melt metal?

I mean, everybody makes dumb mistakes once in a while, but c'mon now.

I'll indulge in some inverse snobbery here and say it wouldn't surprise me if someone with that degree didn't have a clue about internal friction due to strain, it is after all basically a Metallurgical/Processes subject.

Unless he is a Cosmologist I would though expect him to have come across 2nd Order Simple Harmonic Motion equations that cover damping.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Can friction melt metal?

Indeed it can - it's even exploited technologically in the friction welding and friction stir welding processes.

Also: When aircraft gas turbine engines crash at high speeds into solid objects, the roatating spools are often decellerated in a fraction of a second due to deformation of the engine. This causes enough heat to melt, weld and generally ignite a fuel fire - which then melts aluminum.

BTW, I've yet to see evidence of molten steel at Ground Zero, other than that caused by oxy-acetylene torches during the clean up. So why the question in the first place?

 

[pdoherty76]

right thats lurker on ignore

i did indeed do a course on thermodynamics, no mention of molten metal

 

[stateofgrace]

right thats lurker on ignore

i did indeed do a course on thermodynamics, no mention of molten metal

I agree with lurker, will you please put me on your ever expanding ignore list, thanks in advance.

 

[DavidJames]

right thats lurker on ignore

You really are in the wrong place. I suggest you return to the place where people can say whatever they please (using as few letters as possible) without fear of anyone asking for evidence. This is not that place.

 

[delphi_ote]

right thats lurker on ignore

i did indeed do a course on thermodynamics, no mention of molten metal

If you took all the requisite physics classes to have a degree in the subject and took a course on thermodynamics but came away from all of that without understanding that friction causes heat, you either cheated on your exams, failed the thermodynamics course, or attended a horrible school. In any of those cases, your degree wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on.

 

[Horatius]

i have already admitted this is the first time i have encoutered a critical thinking forum and i have also admitted that it is not what i am used to

so what?

The "So what?" is that it seems almost incredible that someone who has graduated from a University with a degree in a science like Physics would have never before been exposed to people asking for evidence of a claim.

Were you around during the Cold Fusion debates a few years back? I was a physics undergrad at the time, and everybody in the department was talking about it, and asking for some evidence of it. Did you manage to miss all this?

Or how about the discovery of High Temperature Superconductors? Same deal, except they had evidence.

There was also a case in my department of a researcher who thought he had evidence for a non-zero neutrino mass, which had been confirmed by another lab. Very controversial, and eventualy proven wrong by, you guessed it, evidence.

So, how did you go thorugh 4+ years of science education, and never see anything like this? I wasn't even at a top university, and I was there for at least 3 such major events.

 

[TV's Frank]

Unless he is a Cosmologist I would though expect him to have come across 2nd Order Simple Harmonic Motion equations that cover damping.

Hello, my name is Matt. I am a Cosmologist, and I have come across 2nd Order Simple Harmonic Motion equations that cover damping.

 

[rwguinn]

I'd be willing to place a sizeable bet that Pd'oh has no degree whatsoever. That he's not even out of high school yet.

I do have a degree. The language mistakes he makes alone are evidence to me that he has not completed the one major thing you must complete to earn a Master's degree. And I'm also willing to bet he can't tell us what that thing would be, nor how he completed it.

I predict imminent and immediate obfuscation.

Maybe its an "ABT" Master's?

 

[pdoherty76]

gravy u prepared to take that bet?

 

[slingblade]

could any of you clowns produce evidence that i dont have a degree?

Nope. Does it matter?

i mean i have offered plenty of evidence that i do including the institution, my tutor, my year of graduation etc

So? Your evidence doesn't suit my conclusion.

but hey if ur idea of critical thinking debates is to question the education of someone you dont know and who admits himself that the degree has no relevence then go ahead.

Thanks! I shall.

Ill just put u on ignore. if you would like a real debate then grow up

You're funny. Do it again.

 

[jujigatami]

Any 100 level introductory physics class teaches about friction, torque, and conservation of energy within the first few days. They also teach F=MA early on, but the nutters have no grasp of that one either.

There is not a university in existence that gives out a degree in "mathematical physics" without having one of the required courses being introductory physics.

Not one.

Nowhere.

Since PD'oh doesn't understand these basic principles of physics, there is no way that he has an advanced physics degree.

 

[jamrat]

"Since PD'oh doesn't understand these basic principles of physics, there is no way that he has an advanced physics degree."



Nor a job or life, apparently.

 

[pdoherty76]

so im taking it that gravy is afraid to take the bet? enough said, he cant back up his allegations

 

[Dog Town]

so im taking it that gravy is afraid to take the bet? enough said, he cant back up his allegations

Why should he? You hav not backed up any of yours. You claimed I had watched LC, you were wrong!

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

so im taking it that gravy is afraid to take the bet? enough said, he cant back up his allegations

Or, it could be that he hasn't read the post yet since he is not currently logged in to the forums.

 

[SwissSkeptic]

Or, it could be that he hasn't read the post yet since he is not currently logged in to the forums.

thats it ur on ignore

 

[slingblade]

Maybe its an "ABT" Master's?

That, or it immediately vaporized on contact with his brain. Did you see any wreckage? I didn't see any. And what's coming out of his head is far too small to be from a Master's degree. There is just no way a Master's leaves a trail of incoherent sludge behind it like that. I talked to a guy who saw a Master's degree once, on his own wall, and he confirmed for me he's never seen any such incoherent sludge trail like that coming from a Master's degree.

Other witnesses say they never saw it either. They just heard a very loud EXPLOSION when the inchoate matter from pdoherty's delusions crashed into the upper levels of critical thinking, after being guided there by remote control! How else do you explain it? No one with even half a brain would let pdoherty's ramblings get anywhere near them if they could see them coming, so it must have been done by remote!

Then they all fell down in their own footprints, laughing, and had a few beers.

You just don't want to know the truth.

 

[Lurker]

right thats lurker on ignore

i did indeed do a course on thermodynamics, no mention of molten metal

Heh, heh. Of course they didn't mention molten metal. You asked about the relationship between friction and heat and I provided it in the First Law of Thermodynamics. The friction is in the Work term and to conserve energy, energy is generated in the form of heat.

To extrapolate this to friction creating molten metal is simple, right?

That being said, I am not sure friction is the source for any molten metal at ground zero.

Lurker