Corrie vs. Caterpillar -- Redux.

[MaGZ]

I was driving along on the Interstate this morning, and heard a radio news report from NPR:
Palestinian witnesses said Thursday that approximately 10 IDF tanks and two bulldozers backed by helicopters had moved before dawn about 500 meters into farming fields in the Gaza Strip (where missiles are being fired against Israeli towns)

Those bulldozers are CAT D9's.

The IDF force came under relentless fire ---- Arbel Reich, 21, was killed.


Caterpillar sold these mechanized combat bulldozers to the IDF, knowing that they would be used in combatting terrorists and in the pursuit of war.

I have just written a letter to Caterpillar Corporate Headquarters, recalling the name of Arbel Reich who died today defending Israel from islamic terrorists, and expressing my personal thanks and appreciation for CAT making available to the IDF such valuable and useful machinery, and I'm encouraging them to continue to do so, without hesitation.

If the Israelis hadn’t attacked Hamas in Gaza, Arbel Reich would not have died.

 

[MaGZ]

Interesting. This I did not know.

The libertarian in me sees it is wrong to make someone get a permit to build a house on land they otherwise legitimately own. Hence I see it, and the subsequent bulldozing, as wrong.

The cynic in me enjoys watching people who love regulation and constantly justify it, wring their hands at the wrongness of regulation being properly enforced.

The Israelis also use bulldozing as a form of collective punishment for the families of those who are involved in the resistance to the Zionist occupation. The Israeli bulldozers completely demolish the homes of the entire family.

US tax dollars at work.

 

[MaGZ]

I disagree with this:

In the Infidels forum pictures were posted of Rachel dressed brightly, holding a bull horn in front of a bulldozer.

Accounts say that witnesses saw Rachel Corrie and the bulldozer in a half an hour slow struggle of will power:

on one side a protester (like the protester in front of the tank during the riots in China), on another side an attacker in a bulldozer who was doing stop and go with a weapon.

As for the Opening Post's question of whether the manufacturer knew of the bulldozer being a weapon, I wonder if the bulldozer hadn't been modified in blades to be a weapon and this might be the reason for the suit.

As for the stupid Ogilvy's jest comment that it must be Bush or Cheney fault, Bush and Cheney are at fault because they are spineless non-patriots who don't defend American Corrie but allow Israeli attacks like this one.

Good point.
Rachel Corrie was just as heroic in standing up to oppression as the Chinese man Tiananmen Square.

 

[MaGZ]

It is truly disgusting that the Jews and brainwashed Goyim who have posted in this thread support the actions of a murderous Israeli causing the death of an American citizen.

 

[MaGZ]

You did ask, if I look back on it, how I would react as a "peace activist" -- there is only going to be one quick way for the palestinians to stop Robotic-D9's and IDF Merkavas and IAF Apache helicopters and f16's and RPVs.

Lay down your arms, surrender them, lay them out there on the beaches of Gaza, by the millions of guns and missiles, and explosives, and grenades, mines, RPG's, anti-aircraft rockets, you-name-it-they've-got-it in Gaza.

Israel is not so stupid as to permit Islamic fanatics to hold sway over any further arming of a small enclave. It was enough that the UN failed so miserably to enforce a simple resolution in Lebanon --- no rearming of Hezbollah, no further Syrian encroachment, and release of the IDF hostages.

None of that was accomplished. Neither was a promised "disarming" accomplished in Gaza, and we now witness the horrible result.



In Gaza, Israel is going to keep rolling in their tanks and D9's, and I'll give anyone listening a piece of friendly advice:

Stay the hell away from the business end of a fully-armored Robotic-controlled combat IDF D9 coming right at you, sucka.

And if you see one of these coming, duck!
http://www.prideandvalor.com/PrideandValor_files/44113.405390.jpg

One day Hamas may be able to take down those Israeli helicopters. It appears more advanced weapons are entering Gaza. The Israeli military may have a wake-up call in Gaza like they did in Lebanon a year ago.

 

[gtc]

I asked you how you would peacefully stop a bulldozer.

Was she "peacefully" trying to stop the bulldozer? She may have been non-violent but peaceful implies that you know her motives.

If I am trying to protect an armed robber from the police, my actions may be non-violent but they are not peaceful.

 

[Cleon]

I would strive to call attention to the reasons the D9's were sent into Rafah to begin with ----- the IDF was attempting to stem the rising tide of weaponry

And blah, blah blah.

Well, thank you for demonstrating one thing. Your calling Rachel "stupid" has nothing to do with her actual intelligence, or the fact that she stood in front of a bulldozer.

Your only problem with Rachel is that she was on the "wrong" side.

I wish you could at least be honest about that, instead of feebly trying to manufacture reasons to dismiss or condemn her.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Point 1 strikes me as not just biased, but as overly simplistic as the "stupid analysis" you objected to.

I don't see your point, or possibly you don't see mine. Surely either it was an accident or it was murder. I said "one of two things". It's a dichotomy.

I don't think the IDF keeps loonies in uniform.

I'm sure they try to avoid it. However, there are well documented instances in which soldiers have done stuff which was wrong, and so I cannot rule it out a priori.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Was she "peacefully" trying to stop the bulldozer? She may have been non-violent but peaceful implies that you know her motives.

If I am trying to protect an armed robber from the police, my actions may be non-violent but they are not peaceful.

If you're going to try feigning incomprehension, it's best not to simultaneously make it clear that you know exactly what I mean.

 

[Dr Adequate]

It is truly disgusting that the Jews and brainwashed Goyim who have posted in this thread support the actions of a murderous Israeli causing the death of an American citizen.

Hitler killed himself. I think his latter-day followers could learn a lot from his example.

 

[Darth Rotor]

One day Hamas may be able to take down those Israeli helicopters. It appears more advanced weapons are entering Gaza. The Israeli military may have a wake-up call in Gaza like they did in Lebanon a year ago.

It is possible that a variety of MANPAD tools can be smuggled into them: SA-7, SA-13, 16, and 18, though I suspect it may be quite a bit harder than whoever is supporting them thinks. (Or maybe they are quite certain of how darned hard it is.)

It is also possible that Hezbollah sorts might, for their own reasons, smuggle a few, or help to smuggle a few, into Gaza to aid an enemy of their enemy, even though Hezbollah and Hamas are pursuing different agendas that happen to be both anti Israeli.

Apaches are fine attack helicopters, but a well deployed AAA trap can lure one into a lead hailstorm that can bring it down.

I suspect Hamas would consider it a counted coup to pull of such a shootdown. I also suspect the IAF and IDF would conduct another reprisal were that to happen.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Another damned double post

 

[Earthborn]

That's twice now you have resorted to this same "reading comprehension" personal attack on me. Why is that?

Because I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. If I were to assume that you know very well how to read and are quite capable of parsing what you are reading, then I have no choice but to conclude that you are willfully misrepresenting what you are reading. Corrie's colleagues all agree that she was sitting, and then stood up, so claiming that her colleagues said she was sitting when she was crushed is either misreading or misrepresenting them.

In any case, standing in front of earthmoving equipment is not a bright thing to do.

There is a fine line between courage and stupidity. Often the difference is whether you accept the reason why someone did something that involved some risk, or whether you do not accept that reason.

Meanwhile, in the news: Unmanned D9 to be deployed by IDF

I sure hope that thing does have cameras for all its blind spots, because otherwise there are even more people who could use a slap to the head.

If the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were run like a civilized place, without threats and violence against Israel, and without rockets flying into Israel, and without a flood of guns, RPG's, explosives and missiles, I can guarantee you that D9's would not be deployed.

So they are not used to enforce building regulations? Have you hold the IDF?

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

What is it with you and backslashes, anyway?

 

[Earthborn]

Hitler killed himself. I think his latter-day followers could learn a lot from his example.

I think you could learn a lot from the forum guidelines and which behaviours are not considered acceptable on this forum.

 

[Freddy]

Oh, and there I was thinking it was badly designed. Well, so long as the driver just couldn't see where he was going, I guess that makes sense. She should have known that no-one would make a vehicle with forward visibility.

"Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding."

Oh, wait, I'm confusing her with an ostrich, it's an easy mistake to make.

I wonder why school buses now have that arm that swings out in front so that children crossing in front of the bus have to go around it? Children had to be run over before that one was figured out.

The bulldozer operator can see where he is going (duh), but he can see objects in front of the bulldozer only if they are at least a certain distance away. With a large bulldozer, that minimum distance may be as much as 15-20 feet. Honestly, this isn't rocket science. All vehicles have blind spots. Very large vehicles have larger blind spots. With large vehicles, one of those blind spots is the area directly in front of the vehicle. Have you ever sat in the cab of a big rig?

She was probably too close for the driver to see her. Or maybe he saw her initially, but by the time she was in the blind spot he thought she was gone. Either way, if you get run over by a vehicle traveling at a few miles per hour, I'd say it's mostly your fault. Perhaps it's partly the driver's fault (but again, if you're in the blind spot, it's not the driver's fault). It definitely isn't the fault of the manufacturer of the bulldozer. Usually, there is a spotter to tell the driver if something or someone is in the blind spot. But considering that the bulldozer had to be armored, I'm guessing that no one was willing to do the job of standing outside the bulldozer to make sure that no one was dumb enough to be standing in the blind spot.

 

[webfusion]

I wonder why school buses now have that arm that swings out in front so that children crossing in front of the bus have to go around it? Children had to be run over before that one was figured out.

The bulldozer operator can see where he is going (duh), but he can see objects in front of the bulldozer only if they are at least a certain distance away. *snip*
She was probably too close for the driver to see her. Or maybe he saw her initially, but by the time she was in the blind spot he thought she was gone. Either way, if you get run over by a vehicle traveling at a few miles per hour, I'd say it's mostly your fault. Perhaps it's partly the driver's fault (but again, if you're in the blind spot, it's not the driver's fault). It definitely isn't the fault of the manufacturer of the bulldozer. Usually, there is a spotter to tell the driver if something or someone is in the blind spot. But considering that the bulldozer had to be armored, I'm guessing that no one was willing to do the job of standing outside the bulldozer to make sure that no one was dumb enough to be standing in the blind spot.

In regards to the underlined portion, I can refresh our collective memories, and remind everyone about the conditions in a Gaza warzone on the afternoon of March 16 2003

Grenades were being tossed at the D9's and orders were simply given: "Flatten the area. Stay inside the armor, and go go go." Sa sa sa. (Hebrew slang for "Get moving")
An IDF tank was offering cover fire.

Warzone.

Same as right now, as IDF main battle tanks and Robotically-controlled unmanned D9's take the battle to the terrorists in Gaza.

You wanna go out there and stand in their way? See ya....

 

[fuelair]

Also the Chinese protester at Tianamen -I am not sure of the spelling- knew he was in front of a tank crushing stuff.

Yet he is hailed as resistence to dictatorship and standing up for democracy.

I have such an admiring article at home.

Corrie is resistence to dictatorship and stands up for democracy the same way.

No she did not. Israel is not - and never has been - a dictatorship by any functional definition of dictatorship - nor has any Palestinean related area been anything rmotely like a bastion of democracy. She was engaged in an illegitimate act disrupting the legitimate military function of destroying actual/potential cover location for illegal combatants on their enemies side. That is a legal act of war. Granted, she should have been arrested and thrown in jail with the terrorists she supported but life is life and bad choices get bad rewards.

 

[gtc]

If you're going to try feigning incomprehension, it's best not to simultaneously make it clear that you know exactly what I mean.

I am not feigning incomprehension.

So answer my implied question.

Was she peacefully trying to stop the bulldozer?

 

[Dr Adequate]

I am not feigning incomprehension.

So answer my implied question.

Was she peacefully trying to stop the bulldozer?

As you are well aware from my posts, I was using "peacefully" in the sense of "non-violently".

If, as you claim, we cannot know whether her actions were "peaceful" unless we know her motives, then I cannot answer your question for two reasons.

Firstly, because I can't read the minds of dead people.

And secondly, because I cannot read your mind and find out which motives you think would render her actions "peaceful".

I called her actions "peaceful" because they were non-violent, as you know perfectly well.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Or maybe he saw her initially, but by the time she was in the blind spot he thought she was gone.

How stupid of her.