Corrie vs. Caterpillar -- Redux.

[Ion]

Why didn't she move?

For the same reason that the Chinese protester at Tianamen -I am not sure of the spelling- stood in front of an advancing tank.

 

[Earthborn]

In the Infidels forum pictures were posted of Rachel dressed brightly, holding a bull horn in front of a bulldozer.

It doesn't matter how brightly you dress if you happen to be in a blind spot.

I wonder if the bulldozer hadn't been modified in blades to be a weapon and this might be the reason for the suit.

It is well known that the IDF modifies the bulldozers, and Caterpillar undoubtedly knew this. The modifications apperently gave the dozers in incredible amount of blind spots. According to the IDF so many in fact that these things normally had to be surrounded by soldiers to look out where they were going. From Wikipedia:

Because the Caterpillar D9 bulldozers have a restricted field of vision with several blind spots, Israeli army regulations normally require that other soldiers assist in directing bulldozer drivers, but the Israeli army commander of the Gaza Strip said in an interview broadcast on Israeli television that, on the day of Corrie's death, soldiers had to stay in their armored vehicles and were not able to direct the bulldozer, or arrest the protesters, because of the threat of Palestinian snipers.

Whoever came up with the idea making such monsterous machines with that many blind spots, and whoever came up with the idea of using them without people looking around, deserves a firm slap to the head. But it does support the IDF's claim that the driver could not see Rachel Corrie when he started to run her down. These bulldozers are now fitted with cameras all around and monitors inside the cabin. Sounds like an obvious solution to me, obvious enough that someone could have come up with it before this tragic incident. But what do I know...

Accounts say that witnesses saw Rachel Corrie and the bulldozer in a half an hour slow struggle of will power:

Which witnesses?

 

[Earthborn]

For the same reason that the Chinese protester at Tianamen -I am not sure of the spelling- stood in front of an advancing tank.

Really? It doesn't look to me like he got stuck in the rubble:

 

[Ion]

It doesn't matter how brightly you dress if you happen to be in a blind spot.

It is well known that the IDF modifies the bulldozers, and Caterpillar undoubtedly knew this. The modifications apperently gave the dozers in incredible amount of blind spots.
...
Which witnesses?

She was not in a blind spot per pictures.

She was on a little mound, level with the driver's eyes.

For example she was higher than this:

Really? It doesn't look to me like he got stuck in the rubble:

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d8/Tianasquare.jpg/250px-Tianasquare.jpg[/qimg]

she was at eye level before the bulldozer mounted the mound and crushed her.


Witnesses were her colleagues.

 

[Earthborn]

She was not in a blind spot per pictures.

You mean this picture, right? You know of course that it isn't a picture of Rachel about to be overrun, but was taken quite some time earlier? It is well known that it got mislabeled by Reuters, though the photographer (who can hardly be accused of being particularly pro-IDF) never claimed it was taken just before the incident.

Witnesses were her colleagues.

On the Wikipedia page I linked to earlier you can read her colleagues words, and they say something different. That is: if you read carefully.

 

[Ion]

There are many pictures of that incident in the Infidels forum.

The point is that the driver knew he had a confrontation with Corrie standing in front of the bulldozer.

Like in China, where the tank had a confrontation with the protester.

 

[webfusion]

She was on a little mound, level with the driver's eyes.

The facts speak for themselves -- she deliberately placed herself in front of huge mechanized equipment, which was in the process of crushing stuff. She knew it was crushing stuff, she saw it crushing stuff, she obviously realized that it could crush her, and was even aware of another previous incident, where an Irish peace activist named Jenny was fortunately able at the last minute to be pulled out of the path of destruction of a D9.

On the day in question, the chain of events is documented:

• At 3:04, Sunday, March 16, IDF soldiers accompanying the unit of 2 D9's and a tank, fired warning shots at the protesters to "no effect," the Israeli military says. Seventeen minutes later, they launched shock grenades and tear gas, again to "no effect." At 3:28, work was temporarily suspended. Then, at 4:15, according to a military log, "twenty Palestinians crouch east of the road; a grenade is tossed at a D9." The troops fired more tear gas to disperse the crowd.

This is the scene in Gaza during March 16, 2003. It was not a peaceful & calm day, and the bulldozers and tank were not there for fun and games.

That IDF bulldozer did not "mount the mound" and chase after her ----- the earthmover plowed right though the mound, flattening anything in the way. Corrie, by her own choice, stayed in the way.

ISM colleagues of hers, such as Joe 'Smith' and Tom Dale, who were witnesses at the scene, described a set of events which contradict what Ion is offering here. Corrie was kneeling/sitting down in the dirt, not standing up with a megaphone. (That famous photo of her standing there on the mound of dirt has been debunked, since it was snapped during another time period, and has no connection to the exact time, right before 5pm, when Corrie was killed).
I would like to know what witnesses he is referring to.
http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Mar-21-03.htm

This photo showing the path of the bulldozer clearly indicates that Corrie played "chicken" with a D9 and lost. [IMAGE LINK]
http://israelbehindthenews.com/pics/Rach2a.jpg


How, in the name of Ed, is that Caterpillar's fault?

 

[Darth Rotor]

• At 3:04, Sunday, March 16, IDF soldiers accompanying the unit of 2 D9's and a tank, fired warning shots at the protesters to "no effect," the Israeli military says. Seventeen minutes later, they launched shock grenades and tear gas, again to "no effect." At 3:28, work was temporarily suspended. Then, at 4:15, according to a military log, "twenty Palestinians crouch east of the road; a grenade is tossed at a D9." The troops fired more tear gas to disperse the crowd.

This is the scene in Gaza during March 16, 2003. It was not a peaceful & calm day, and the bulldozers and tank were not there for fun and games.

That IDF bulldozer did not "mount the mound" and chase after her ----- the earthmover plowed right though the mound, flattening anything in the way. Corrie, by her own choice, stayed in the way.

ISM colleagues of hers, such as Joe 'Smith' and Tom Dale, who were witnesses at the scene, described a set of events which contradict what Ion is offering here. Corrie was kneeling/sitting down in the dirt, not standing up with a megaphone. (That famous photo of her standing there on the mound of dirt has been debunked, since it was snapped during another time period, and has no connection to the exact time, right before 5pm, when Corrie was killed).
I would like to know what witnesses he is referring to.
http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Mar-21-03.htm

This photo showing the path of the bulldozer clearly indicates that Corrie played "chicken" with a D9 and lost. [IMAGE LINK]
http://israelbehindthenews.com/pics/Rach2a.jpg

Not to worry, web, Ion does not mind lying to support his assertions. It's part of his charm.

DR

 

[casebro]

So if the Caterpillar driver, a soldier, had gotten out and shot her for interfering in a military action, nobody would have complained. And Caterpillar would be off the hook. And nobody would even think of holding the rifle maker responsible. So the guy used his dozer instead of his rifle. Why should that change anything?

The whole thing is just deep pockets. Daughter was stooo-oo-pid, and belongs in the Darwin Awards. But Mom & Dad see a chance to make beau-coup bucks off of their dead, stoopid daughter. Their only chance to get some is from Caterpillar. Greedy bastards. When the daughter willfully committed suicide. What kind of judgment did they raise her to have? commit suicide to make Momma rich?

I suspect they have already lost in Israeli courts?

What a sad state our laws/courts/tort system is in, when somebody can throw herself under the wheels, and the major defendant is the wheel maker, not the suicider, not the driver, not the IDF, not the US state department for letting her go to Palestine.

 

[Ion]

The facts speak for themselves -- she deliberately placed herself in front of huge mechanized equipment, which was in the process of crushing stuff. She knew it was crushing stuff, she saw it crushing stuff, she obviously realized that it could crush her,...
...
How, in the name of Ed, is that Caterpillar's fault?

Also the Chinese protester at Tianamen -I am not sure of the spelling- knew he was in front of a tank crushing stuff.

Yet he is hailed as resistence to dictatorship and standing up for democracy.

I have such an admiring article at home.

Corrie is resistence to dictatorship and stands up for democracy the same way.

 

[Ion]

Who told you this imbecility?

...nobody would have complained....

 

[Earthborn]

she obviously realized that it could crush her,

A claim for which you have no evidence.

ISM colleagues of hers, such as Joe 'Smith' and Tom Dale, who were witnesses at the scene, described a set of events which contradict what Ion is offering here.

Indeed.

Corrie was kneeling/sitting down in the dirt, not standing up with a megaphone.

You, like Ion, are a person who could be massively improved by a little reading comprehension.

That famous photo of her standing there on the mound of dirt has been debunked

The photo wasn't debunked. There is nothing obviously wrong with the photo. It just got mislabeled, and its mislabeling was corrected.

This photo showing the path of the bulldozer clearly indicates that Corrie played "chicken" with a D9 and lost.

I think you have to show how it "clearly indicates" that.

 

[Dr Adequate]

So if the Caterpillar driver, a soldier, had gotten out and shot her for interfering in a military action, nobody would have complained.

May I be the first and last person ever to congratulate you on your firm grip on reality?

The whole thing is just deep pockets.

Evidence?

Daughter was stooo-oo-pid.

Evidence?

When the daughter willfully committed suicide.

Evidence?

What a sad state our laws/courts/tort system is in, when somebody can throw herself under the wheels ...

Evidence?

I suppose supporting your assertions would cut down the amount of time you can spend dancing on graves, but give it a shot, eh?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Daughter was stooo-oo-pid.

Evidence?

She remained in front of a giant earthmoving vehicle that was about to run her over/crush her/cover her is rubble/etc. She did not get out of its way. It ran her over. It is not a stretch for someone to consider that stupid.

When the daughter willfully committed suicide.

Evidence?

If it was her intention to be martyred, then she was most certainly not being stupid, for her actions fit her purpose perfectly in that case. That then raises the "suicide" matter. There may be some fine distinctions to parse between "suicide" and "martyrdom," if one wishes to go there, but suicide is one valid assessment.

Some may consider her allowing herself to be run over as brave, based on the above point regarding martyrdom.

It's a fine line.

DR

 

[Dr Adequate]

She remained in front of a giant earthmoving vehicle that was about to run here over. She did not get out of its way. It ran her over. It is not a stretch for someone to consider that stupid.

But you're judging by outcomes. What was she stupid about?

Standing in front of things is, after all, a common and often successful tactic of civil disobedience. If I wanted to stop a bulldozer from going somewhere, I'd stand in front of it, possibly hoping for Vogon intervention.

Judging by the comments on this thread, she was ignorant of one of two things:

(1) The driver was a looney willing to kill an unarmed woman in cold blood.

(2) The Israelis were using bulldozers that the operator couldn't see out of.

I wouldn't have guessed either.

 

[strathmeyer]

Sorry, it still ads up to "she played chicken with a bulldozer and lost", which is stupid.

 

[webfusion]

Reviewing the points one by one and going down the list....

A claim for which you have no evidence.

The claim is that she knew a D9 was capable of crushing her.
I said: "She knew it was crushing stuff, she saw it crushing stuff, she obviously realized that it could crush her, and was even aware of another previous incident, where an Irish peace activist named Jenny was fortunately able at the last minute to be pulled out of the path of destruction of a D9."

Are you asking me to provide evidence here of the capacity of a D9 to crush a human? Is that what you're asking for?

You, like Ion, are a person who could be massively improved by a little reading comprehension.

Not sure where you see myself and Ion being in the same category of lacking comprehension. Here is the material (Tom Dale's eyewitness account) that I relied on to make my statement that Corrie was kneeling/sitting as the earthmover came forward:
http://www.think-israel.org/corrie.html

The photo wasn't debunked. There is nothing obviously wrong with the photo. It just got mislabeled, and its mislabeling was corrected.

A distinction without a difference. The photo was presented (and still is presented in various places) as being taken immediately before the bulldozer pushed forward, and ION referred to the photo as "proof" that the D9 driver had line-of-sight to where Rachel Corrie was standing on that mound.
You even spent some minor effort here to 'debunk' that photo (see your own post #25)

I think you have to show how it "clearly indicates" that (Corrie played 'chicken' and lost.

The D9 killed her.
The D9 suffered no damage.
Which leads me to say that Corrie "lost" in this confrontation.
Others may see it differently. The mere fact that we are still discussing the incident, could mean that she "won" even though she's dead. I personally don't think so, but that is certainly a point open to debate.

Here are the types of comments which are cropping up on other discussion Forums, in response to this appeal in the US 9th Circuit Court:

• "Caterpillar, on the other hand, is effectively selling the ZioNazis of
  the Apartheid Israeli Regime gas chambers to allow the Apartheid
  Israeli Regime to exterminate the Palestinians who stand in the way of
  their expansionist goals."

I don't think Rachel Corrie herself could have put it better.

 

[Mycroft]

In this case specifically, the overall operation was supposedly aimed at weapon-smuggling tunnels in the neighborhood, but it remains an uncontested point of record that the house Rachel was defending and its owners had no connection to terrorist activity whatsoever.

The circumstances of Corrie's death are disputed. The ISM says that the driver of the bulldozer deliberately ran her over twice while she was trying to prevent the demolition of the home of Samir Nasrallah, a local pharmacist.[1] The official Israeli Government Report and the IDF deny that, and state that she was killed by falling debris pushed over by a bulldozer whose driver did not see her, and that the bulldozer was clearing brush and not engaged in a demolition when Corrie impeded it, interfering with security operations designed to uncover the network of smuggling tunnels connecting Egypt to the Palestinian side of Rafah - tunnels used by Hamas and other groups for smuggling weapons from Egypt in Gaza strip.

Not exactly true, eh Cleon?

 

[The Fool]

Not exactly true, eh Cleon?

Lol....Mycroft, last time you weighed in on this issue it was to claim that a non existant tunnel existed.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2451800&highlight=tunnel#post2451800

"he owned many homes, the one that was slated to be destroyed was empty at the time and had a tunnel used for smuggling weapons."


So when you made that statement you were happy to state that the house was slated for destruction...something you wish to flip flop on in this thread..... and you jazzed it up by adding a ficticious tunnel.

So after being caught in that lie you now want to be the honesty police on this issue? Get some credability first.

 

[Mycroft]

But Mom & Dad see a chance to make beau-coup bucks off of their dead, stoopid daughter. Their only chance to get some is from Caterpillar. Greedy bastards. When the daughter willfully committed suicide. What kind of judgment did they raise her to have? commit suicide to make Momma rich?

My understanding is that the Corries are somewhat affluent and are more likely to be motivated for political reasons than for financial ones. Win or lose, the effect of this lawsuit would be to make other companies fearful of doing business with Israel.