Merged Core-led collapse and explosive demolition

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4. It takes energy to push stationary mass out of the way or to set mass into motion. If a moving mass collides with a stationary mass, the moving object is slowed down while the stationary object is sped up and total momentum is conserved. This is simple physics and is known as The Law of Conservation of Momentum. It works in all directions, even in the direction of Earth's gravitational pull.

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NOTES:
(1) Much more involved calculations by Kenneth Kuttler, PhD Mathematics BYU are available at Journal of 911 Studies: Look for "WTC1 Collapse Time Calculations".
Kuttler, says 12 seconds for momentum, what is your point?
Collapse based on momentum only, 12.08 seconds. 9.2 seconds for a large mass, then falling at 12.08 seconds is very slow, but then you have no concept of speed, or time when it comes to gravity.

You failed to read the paper, Kuttler agrees with my time of 12.08 seconds (12.18) for a momentum only model. The WTC collapse, time it yourself! What does Kuttler says is a reasonable time. Double failure, you failed to read and you failed to get a video and time the entire collapse.

Go ahead time the collapse. The towers took longer than 20 seconds to collapse, and most of the dust was not from concrete. Triple fail.

You don't do physics, the flaw in your logic is not timing the collapse yourself. What times did you get?
I just timed WTC 1 collapsing and the final core section was still falling after 30 seconds. You lost, and you are gullible, you failed to time the collapse. I got over 30 seconds, Kuttler says 25 seconds is reasonable.

What was your point?
 
Let's get back to this claim that explosions were not heard by any of the survivors. Still unsubstantiated, and obviously contradicted by countless eye/earwitness testimonies. But bee dunkers claim that there were survivors in the core, during the collapses, who stated that they did not hear explosions.

the people who were in the core during the collapse did not hear the blast going off. CD charges are loud enough for hearing damage from a half-mile away. Whatever "blast mitigation" that could muffle the sound for people outside would have the effect of making it louder for the people inside the core. The survivors possibly would've been deaf.

They still haven't told us how many survivors there were in the core during the collapses, for one, and secondly, who claimed they did not hear explosions. So this remains an unsubstantiated assertion.

And of course, with the exception of 0063 here, who debunks himself, bee dunkers don't bother pondering why explosions might not have been heard by some survivors. :rolleyes:

This has been another time waster brought to you by 9/11 JREF bee dunkers. We will move on from this point.
 
Let's get back to this claim that explosions were not heard by any of the survivors. ...


They still haven't told us how many survivors there were in the core during the collapses, for one, and secondly, who claimed they did not hear explosions. So this remains an unsubstantiated assertion.

And of course, with the exception of 0063 here, who debunks himself, bee dunkers don't bother pondering why explosions might not have been heard by some survivors. :rolleyes:

This has been another time waster brought to you by 9/11 JREF bee dunkers. We will move on from this point.

Your best physics is what? The entire moon can't crush the WTC. Good job. You are the best 911 truther there is. You still have problems with simile. Have you taken your evidence to CBS, or 60 minutes? What did they say? Are you going to take action, or just say "9/11 JREF bee dunkers" as you expose your failed physics? You are the best 9/11 JREF bee dunker there is, you have no clue you are the best 9/11 JREF bee dunker. But you are. You can't answer you own questions; why?

6. So absolute freefall is 9.2 seconds; adding 5 seconds to this number gives us a collapse time of at least 14 seconds due to mass alone and Newton's Laws, while ignoring any effects of structural strength whatsoever.
Hey dude! You failed to read the paper, he said 12 seconds for mass alone! Can't you do physics? Where did you pull 5 seconds from?
 
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The flaw in the logic is that, firstly, you've misrepresented Kenneth Kuttler's calculations, and secondly, they are not based on the set of assumptions you claim they are. Kuttler has calculated a range of collapse times for different sets of assumptions, and his result taking into account conservation of momentum alone is not the 15 seconds you claim but 12.18 seconds, significantly less than your estimate of the observed collapse time. He then goes on to make wildly unrealistic assumptions about the collapse dynamics, apparently in a deliberate attempt to obtain an unrealistically high result.

Nah... that 12.18 seconds completely disregarded any resistance of the vertical columns, either core or peripheral, in Kuttler's paper. That portion of his paper dealt only with static inertial resistance.

The point is, you can attribute a reasonably certain number of seconds delay in collapse time due to overcoming sheer inertia. And you can attribute a reasonably certain number of seconds delay to the effects of actual structural strength.

It is much easier to calculate the resistance of inertial mass than it is to mathematically quantify resistance due to strength and deformation.

SecondsOfFreefallTime + SecondsAttributedToMassInertia + SecondsAttributedToStructuralStrength = TotalObservedCollapseTime.

This is the sort of question that NIST should have addressed. It's the first thing that occurred to me on the very day of the events. I waited years for an acceptable answer from the officials and never got any.
 
ergo said:
They still haven't told us how many survivors there were in the core during the collapses

Source
"Fourteen people, mostly firefighters from Ladder Company 6 and Engine 39, survived in the B stairwell of the North Tower and crawled to safety."

Answered multiple times between links and direct posting by multiple people... the denial required to say the information hasn't been given is on par with Holocaust denial.
 
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To continue what Grizzly just posted.

"They are:
Firefighters Billy Butler, Tommy Falco, Jay Jonas, Michael Meldrum, Sal D'Agastino, and Matt Komorowski of Ladder 6;
Firefighter Mickey Kross of Engine Company 16,
Firefighters Jim McGlynn, Rob Bacon, Jeff Coniglio, and Jim Efthimiaddes of Engine 39; Port Authority Police Officer Dave Lim; Battalion Chief Rich Picciotto of the
11th Battalion;"

Now, ergo, let's look at their accounts in the Oral Histories.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110447.PDF

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110211.PDF
 
Let's get back to this claim that explosions were not heard by any of the survivors. Still unsubstantiated, and obviously contradicted by countless eye/earwitness testimonies. But bee dunkers claim that there were survivors in the core, during the collapses, who stated that they did not hear explosions.


Ease up on the strawman! What has he ever done to you?!
 
This is the sort of question that NIST should have addressed. It's the first thing that occurred to me on the very day of the events. I waited years for an acceptable answer from the officials and never got any.

That's because (as I'm sure you've been told before) NIST was charged with determining the cause of the collapse, not the mechanics once the collapse began.

Think about it. What lessons would be learned from such a study? How to make buildings fail in a more orderly fashion? Why would building designers want to do that, rather than make them more resistant to failure?
 
Thanks, Grizz. Now, was that so hard?

Interestingly, Jim McGlynn is the only firefighter out of this list whose testimony appears in the oral histories.

Billy Butler, Tommy Falco, Jay Jonas, Michael Meldrum, Sal D'Agastino, and Matt Komorowski of Ladder 6; Firefighter Mickey Kross of Engine Company 16, Rob Bacon, Jeff Coniglio, and Jim Efthimiaddes of Engine 39, despite surviving miraculously, apparently had nothing to contribute to the oral histories.

Grizzly, here is James McGlynn's testimony. Would you care to point out to us where he states he did not hear any explosions? He talks about hearing floors "imploding" one on top of the other. What do you think he means by that?

While you're at it, could you maybe tell us what he said that's been blacked out on pgs. 7, 20 and 33? Was it something risky to national security?
 
Let's get back to this claim that explosions were not heard by any of the survivors.

Why do you keep saying that?

Everytime we have to tell you that explosions were heard, but that explosions doesn't have to mean bomb and that wel fully expect people to report such things in this instance and that all the evidence points against it being explosives (ie. no blast injuries etc)


 
He talks about hearing floors "imploding" one on top of the other. What do you think he means by that?

Uh, the sound of one floor hitting the other? :rolleyes:

While you're at it, could you maybe tell us what he said that's been blacked out on pgs. 7, 20 and 33? Was it something risky to national security?

Who knows, why hasn't the truth mobement attempted to contact any of these people? maybe you could ask them if any of them sustained any injuries associated with explosives.
 
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When you've answered those questions, you can tell us where Billy Butler, Tommy Falco, Jay Jonas, Michael Meldrum, Sal D'Agastino, Matt Komorowski, Mickey Kross, Rob Bacon, Jeff Coniglio, and Jim Efthimiaddes have stated that either there were no explosions or that they did not hear any. Thanks.
 
While you're at it, could you maybe tell us what he said that's been blacked out on pgs. 7, 20 and 33? Was it something risky to national security?

Ah..the old "redact must mean evil" theory.

Say, are you still convinced the clouds were pyroclastic?
 
When you've answered those questions, you can tell us where Billy Butler, Tommy Falco, Jay Jonas, Michael Meldrum, Sal D'Agastino, Matt Komorowski, Mickey Kross, Rob Bacon, Jeff Coniglio, and Jim Efthimiaddes have stated that either there were no explosions or that they did not hear any. Thanks.

A, I have answered them and B, no one says firefighters did not hear explosions. Stop lying.
 
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The point is, you can attribute a reasonably certain number of seconds delay in collapse time due to overcoming sheer inertia. And you can attribute a reasonably certain number of seconds delay to the effects of actual structural strength.

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I timed WTC 1 falling, it took over 30 seconds. You failed to make a point, if you went to engineering school get your money back, it only takes a grade school education to debunk the paper you posted.
 
Ergo, answer now please:
Did they suffer injuries consistent with being in such close proximity to so-claimed explosives when they were allegedly detonated?

Please use the following as a guide when you answer:
Blast injuries are divided into four classes: primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary.
Primary injuries

Primary injuries are caused by blast overpressure waves, or shock waves. These are especially likely when a person is close to an exploding munition, such as a land mine.[1] The ears are most often affected by the overpressure, followed by the lungs and the hollow organs of the gastrointestinal tract. Gastrointestinal injuries may present after a delay of hours or even days.[1] Injury from blast overpressure is a pressure and time dependent function. By increasing the pressure or its duration, the severity of injury will also increase.[1]

In general, primary blast injuries are characterized by the absence of external injuries; thus internal injuries are frequently unrecognized and their severity underestimated. According to the latest experimental results, the extent and types of primary blast-induced injuries depend not only on the peak of the overpressure, but also other parameters such as number of overpressure peaks, time-lag between overpressure peaks, characteristics of the shear fronts between overpressure peaks, frequency resonance, and electromagnetic pulse, among others. There is general agreement that spalling, implosion, inertia, and pressure differentials are the main mechanisms involved in the pathogenesis of primary blast injuries. Thus, the majority of prior research focused on the mechanisms of blast injuries within gas-containing organs/organ systems such as the lungs, while primary blast-induced traumatic brain injury has remained underestimated. Blast lung refers to severe pulmonary contusion, bleeding or swelling with damage to alveoli and blood vessels, or a combination of these.[2] It is the most common cause of death among people who initially survive an explosion.[3]

Secondary injuries

Secondary injuries are due people being injured by shrapnel and other objects propelled by the explosion.[4] These injuries may affect any part of the body and sometimes result in penetrating trauma with visible bleeding. At times the propelled object may become embedded in the body, obstructing the loss of blood to the outside. However, there may be extensive blood loss within the body cavities. Shrapnel wounds may be lethal and therefore many anti-personnel bombs are designed to generate shrapnel and fragments.

Most casualties are caused by secondary injuries.[4] Some explosives, such as nail bombs, are deliberately designed to increase the likelihood of secondary injuries.[4] In other instances, the target provides the raw material for the objects thrown into people, e.g., shattered glass from a blasted-out window or the glass facade of a building.[4]

Tertiary injuries

Displacement of air by the explosion creates a blast wind that can throw victims against solid objects.[1] Injuries resulting from this type of traumatic impact are referred to as tertiary blast injuries. Tertiary injuries may present as some combination of blunt and penetrating trauma, including bone fractures and coup contre-coup injuries.

Young children, because they weigh less than adults, are at particular risk of tertiary injury.[4]

Quaternary injuries

Quaternary injuries, or other miscellaneous named injuries, are all other injuries not included in the first three classes. These include flash burns, crush injuries and respiratory injuries.[4]

Traumatic amputations are rare in survivors, and are often accompanied by significant other injuries.[4] The rate of eye injury may depend on the type of blast.[4] Psychiatric injury, some of which may be caused by neurological damage incurred during the blast, is the most common quaternary injury, and post-traumatic stress disorder may affect people who are otherwise completely uninjured.[4]
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_injury
 
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Ergo, answer now please:

Uh, uh, uhh... not so fast, Grizz.

And where have Billy Butler, Tommy Falco, Jay Jonas, Michael Meldrum, Sal D'Agastino, Matt Komorowski, Mickey Kross, Rob Bacon, Jeff Coniglio, and Jim Efthimiaddes stated that either there were no explosions or that they did not hear any?
 
Uh, uh, uhh... not so fast, Grizz.

And where have Billy Butler, Tommy Falco, Jay Jonas, Michael Meldrum, Sal D'Agastino, Matt Komorowski, Mickey Kross, Rob Bacon, Jeff Coniglio, and Jim Efthimiaddes stated that either there were no explosions or that they did not hear any?
Who cares?

What makes you think explosives would be necessary or used in the first place? This is where you need to start.


This skipped step is why "truthers" have been mostly ignored by the world.


Care to be the first to start at step one?
 

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