Negotiated an end to what? They negotiated an end to the terrorist campaign on condition that the IRA end the terrorist campaign? What does that mean?
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Corbyn's days (very) numbered?
- Thread starter GlennB
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The IRA always said that their 'terrorist campaign', or in their words 'struggle', would cease once they were satisfied that their legitimate demands had been recognized.
That's what Corbyn always said and probably what Gaddafi said too.
I suppose you can spin it that negotiating with the IRA and agreeing to many of their demands with the IRA leader ending up as Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland doesn't count as 'supporting the IRA'. If that makes you feel good while still allowing you to criticize Corbyn but not the people who did the actual negotiation then by all means carry on.
That's what Corbyn always said and probably what Gaddafi said too.
I suppose you can spin it that negotiating with the IRA and agreeing to many of their demands with the IRA leader ending up as Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland doesn't count as 'supporting the IRA'. If that makes you feel good while still allowing you to criticize Corbyn but not the people who did the actual negotiation then by all means carry on.
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ddt
Mafia Penguin
Isn't the IRA official stance that they don't even recognize the current Irish Republic because it was not properly constituted from the start but started out as a sort of British dominion? Or am I confused with another xIRA?
Second, it's not the IRA leader but the Sinn Fein leader who ended up as Deputy First Minister and who has (im)plausible deniability that he was in the IRA command structure.
Third, most importantly, I think there's a considerable difference between negotiating with the IRA and praising their actions. The first is a clear necessity to bringing an end to the conflict. You have to get them on-board for the violence to stop, or at least a large enough fraction that the break-aways will be ineffectual. The second condones violence against the state you aspire to serve as a politician. And even if Corbyn himself made wishy-washy statements like that he didn't condone all their actions, he associated with people who clearly applauded the Brighton bombing, while he was already an MP. That's an incredibly stupid thing to do, it will come to haunt you.
Likewise, there's nothing wrong, IMHO, with talking with the
Of course, all such things can be overlooked when you show leadership and have charisma. See, e.g., Joschka Fischer: he withered the allegations that he had thrown stones at the police (true), that he had given bed and breakfast to a RAF terrorist (true), and undoubtedly many more but I don't read Bild; but he kept the party together in the fractuous disputes between "realos" and "fundis" and managed to get his party into government (*). But Corbyn has the charisma of a damp towel and has increased the divisiveness within his party.
And on top of all his associations with the wrong people, Corbyn seems to never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity to take the government to task (no, that sentence is not a typo!). All in all, it seems to me that, apart from the question whether Corbyn is too left or not left enough, he's just not fit to lead his party. Labour better dump him before the 2020 elections.
(*) And then, as leader of an avowed pacifist party, and as foreign minister, scrambled his state into its first war ever. Ahem.
brodski
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During those negotiations Sinn Fein asked Blair ti get Corbyn to wind his neck in, because his hard line stance was making it more difficult for them to move their hard liners towards peace.
When a peace package was agreed, Corbyn vited against it. He didnt want peace in nirthern Ireland, he wanted republican victory.
brodski
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Have you seen the opinion polls? Most labour voters (2015) dont think he would make a better PM than May or "don't know".
He is even less popular with the wider public.
corbyn wins cue more headlines of comrade corbyn, communist scum whatever.
smith wins, expect some wolfie smith type mockery, and no doubt the mail finding a family once wore red and is therefore, a pinko commie.
either way labour are in for a tough time.
smith wins, expect some wolfie smith type mockery, and no doubt the mail finding a family once wore red and is therefore, a pinko commie.
either way labour are in for a tough time.
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MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Well I just voted. Novel way to do it, you got a mini statement from each leader to read before you cast your vote and one chance to change your mind.
p0lka
Illuminator
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
So it's still Corbyn after all is it? (barring a surprise)
Looks like it and that means that Theresa May and her government can sail blithely on despite having what should be a worryingly small majority.
One major bookie has Con at 2.0 to win the next GE with an overall majority (evens, in UK-style odds). With your degree of confidence then this ought to be a no-brainer to bet on, if you like a punt now and then. No overall majority is a close 2nd fave at 2.2
I don't make cash bets, but in any case I think we may be slightly at crossed purposes. I was referring to Theresa May's ability to make it through the current election cycle without having to worry about the relative narrowness of her majority rather than the Conservatives' prospects in the next general election.
I'm not sure whether the Conservatives will win an overall majority, though I think it's very likely that they will be the largest overall party unless they suffer some major reverse (like splitting over Brexit if the free movement of people and EU regulation is the price for continued membership of the EEA) and/or the Labour Party really get their act together under a charismatic leader.
Ah, 'charisma' is what Labour needs? I'm living in the vain hope that one day we'll see beyond 'charisma' as a prerequisite for senior office.
Charisma: compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.
Nothing in there about policies or ability, I see. Merkel? Probably the least charismatic European national leader for a generation, but she gets the job done it seems.
Charisma: compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.
Nothing in there about policies or ability, I see. Merkel? Probably the least charismatic European national leader for a generation, but she gets the job done it seems.
If the only function of a political party is to win the next election no matter what, then charisma in a leader is an essential attribute. With charisma a leader can score the required victory without being forced to adopt policies unattractive to his or her party. With sufficient charisma no policies are required at all. This is the opposite of Clement Atlee whose want of charisma inspired Churchill's celebrated comment, but who had policies coming out of his ears, so to speak.
Airfix
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I don't think either man can win the 2020 election, the question is who can re-energise Labour as a party, so that by 2025 / 2030 they can get back in again.
Personally I think that man is Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith hasn't learned that by following a pro EU stance you don't win general elections. Labour lost in 2010 and 2015, they lost the 2014 EU elections and they lost the 2016 referendum in which Corbyn supported the wishes of the Parliamentary party and campaigned for the remain side. Instead of accepting the wishes of the electorate, the PLP turned on their leader (whom they never wanted, they wanted a Blairite like Liz Kendall) and have tried to unseat him.
Undoubtedly Jeremy Corbyn has baggage, but at least he comes across as being honest. Owen Smith comes across as a sort of dodgy used car salesman. I for one would not buy from him.
Labour is in serious trouble.
Personally I think that man is Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith hasn't learned that by following a pro EU stance you don't win general elections. Labour lost in 2010 and 2015, they lost the 2014 EU elections and they lost the 2016 referendum in which Corbyn supported the wishes of the Parliamentary party and campaigned for the remain side. Instead of accepting the wishes of the electorate, the PLP turned on their leader (whom they never wanted, they wanted a Blairite like Liz Kendall) and have tried to unseat him.
Undoubtedly Jeremy Corbyn has baggage, but at least he comes across as being honest. Owen Smith comes across as a sort of dodgy used car salesman. I for one would not buy from him.
Labour is in serious trouble.
3point14
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Perhaps the Germans are still wary of charismatic leaders?
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Everybody who has won an election since the EU was formed had a pro-EU stance. Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.
Perhaps the best strategy would be to pursue a pro-EU policy in all essentials, to but spout xenophobic rhetoric about Johnny Foreigner while doing so.
Well 2/3 of Labour voters voted to Remain so the parliamentary Labour Party was following the wishes of their supporters.
Of course they weren't following the wishes of the majority of Tory and UKIP voters who voted to Leave but that's hardly the point.
The young, and Labour supporters voted overwhelmingly to Remain - remind me again why adopting an anti-EU position would be good for the Labour Party ?