So the "objective" view, in this sense, is that if Islam/Judaism/atheism/FSM/etc. is true for anyone, it's true for all. I agree with you (if I've understood you correctly) that that seems somehow to be a more intellectually respectable view than "wishy-washy" one you described earlier, although it also leads to some challenging issues.
Converting from Christianity to Atheism
- Thread starter Dioptre
- Start date
So the "objective" view, in this sense, is that if Islam/Judaism/atheism/FSM/etc. is true for anyone, it's true for all. I agree with you (if I've understood you correctly) that that seems somehow to be a more intellectually respectable view than "wishy-washy" one you described earlier, although it also leads to some challenging issues.
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
It is in the nature of religion for its adherents to believe that theirs is the one "true" religion, and all the others are wrong. I have more acceptance for someone who respects someone else's religious belief than someone who automatically thinks that they're a tool of Satan (or whatever).
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Well, as interesting as some of the derails can get, it's back to the main topic.
Dioptre, I'm going through a lot of what you are right now. I believe there's a god, I just can't prove there is. Bottom line for me is that I have to base my actions on what I know works, rather than what someone tells me works. The best evidence I have says I wasted my time by attending church, and my money by making tithes and offerings. Christianity has become so legalistic, so pharisaical, it's become what it sought to replace.
I'm not being "converted" to atheism, rather, I'm rejecting fantasies of some benign sacred Santa Claus who will set aside the laws of nature to bless me. I fail to see how that happens in real life. (I've other threads on this, so I won't continue a derail here. You can check them out at a more convenient time, Amigo.)
Ken made a valid point: Which God? If you read even half of what's out there about Christianity alone, you have some of the most diverse group of opinions to be found, and you can't get ANYONE to give you a straight answer about even the basic attributes of God. If that's the case, how can you tell the "god" you worship is the True God? That, quite frankly, makes things even more frightening, because all you need to do is look at the damage done by people like Eric Rudolph, and you can see there's a monumental disconnect between what most of us would consider basic decency, and what people like Rudolph do.
And this isn't even the half of it: Consider that the worst damage done to people takes place over the course of years, poisons administered in small doses week after week. It's forms of abuse, of hate, bred deeply into the hearts of those who choose "faith." Faith in what? Considering the divergent opinions I mentioned before, I ask again, what is it people are choosing to believe in? The "god" most folks choose to follow seems to mirror the prejudices and bigotries of the follower!
In other words, we're leading ourselves! What's the point in going to Church if you're not confronted or challenged to become a better person? If the Jesus you follow is some blonde dude with long hair who could easily be your next door neighbor, if he'd only get a haircut and drive a Lexus?
The big question comes to mind: What if he isn't real? What if we've been lied to? In the end, have we lived a better life by following this pattern of behavior, or would our lives have been better if we rejected it? Read through the bigotry of what's been posted before by our latest Christotroll, and the answer becomes obvious. It became obvious, and I wound up walking out from the Church. I'd had enough. I wanted to be kinder, I wanted to be more honest, I wanted to be a Good Man. I was none of the above. That provoked a change.
All I can say, Amigo, is keep your eyes open, and keep moving. In realizing what I'd missed out on, I discovered I had a lot of ground to make up. It's worth it.
Dioptre, I'm going through a lot of what you are right now. I believe there's a god, I just can't prove there is. Bottom line for me is that I have to base my actions on what I know works, rather than what someone tells me works. The best evidence I have says I wasted my time by attending church, and my money by making tithes and offerings. Christianity has become so legalistic, so pharisaical, it's become what it sought to replace.
I'm not being "converted" to atheism, rather, I'm rejecting fantasies of some benign sacred Santa Claus who will set aside the laws of nature to bless me. I fail to see how that happens in real life. (I've other threads on this, so I won't continue a derail here. You can check them out at a more convenient time, Amigo.)
Ken made a valid point: Which God? If you read even half of what's out there about Christianity alone, you have some of the most diverse group of opinions to be found, and you can't get ANYONE to give you a straight answer about even the basic attributes of God. If that's the case, how can you tell the "god" you worship is the True God? That, quite frankly, makes things even more frightening, because all you need to do is look at the damage done by people like Eric Rudolph, and you can see there's a monumental disconnect between what most of us would consider basic decency, and what people like Rudolph do.
And this isn't even the half of it: Consider that the worst damage done to people takes place over the course of years, poisons administered in small doses week after week. It's forms of abuse, of hate, bred deeply into the hearts of those who choose "faith." Faith in what? Considering the divergent opinions I mentioned before, I ask again, what is it people are choosing to believe in? The "god" most folks choose to follow seems to mirror the prejudices and bigotries of the follower!
In other words, we're leading ourselves! What's the point in going to Church if you're not confronted or challenged to become a better person? If the Jesus you follow is some blonde dude with long hair who could easily be your next door neighbor, if he'd only get a haircut and drive a Lexus?
The big question comes to mind: What if he isn't real? What if we've been lied to? In the end, have we lived a better life by following this pattern of behavior, or would our lives have been better if we rejected it? Read through the bigotry of what's been posted before by our latest Christotroll, and the answer becomes obvious. It became obvious, and I wound up walking out from the Church. I'd had enough. I wanted to be kinder, I wanted to be more honest, I wanted to be a Good Man. I was none of the above. That provoked a change.
All I can say, Amigo, is keep your eyes open, and keep moving. In realizing what I'd missed out on, I discovered I had a lot of ground to make up. It's worth it.
Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
And one more thing: Kathy, it is the heighth of rudeness for you to have derailed this person's thread for your own selfish desires. That's not humble, that's prideful. It shows you to be a liar. I don't even think they'd allow this on your home board, much less in your Church. I think an apology is in order, and I mean a genuine one, without your usual justifications and meandering explanations of what a hard life you've had. Other people have had harder lives, and they've never been as vulgar as you have.
Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
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Dreams are the mind reviewing important activities from earlier in the day for the purpose of drawing inferences and associations, as well as reinforcing neural pathways of those stored memories via recalling them.
Why would one believe there is some god out there directing these dreams? That seems mighty strange.
Beerina
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
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I regularly presume The Bible is true, as well as common extra-biblical concepts, for the purpose of objectively demonstrating Yahweh is an evil SOB. If that's not objective, taking it at face value, then I don't know what is.
But here's someone who's done it a hundred times better.
Sort of. I think most people will say that their own religion is closer to the mark than other religions...and I think most people also understand that their own particular religion is not in full possession of absolute objective theological truth. Some people in other religions, then, could be wrong about particular issues, some quite large, but could be right about other stuff.
So do most religious people in this particular culture of ours, methinks.
-Elliot
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
Not in my experience. OK, my experience is likely to be somewhat skewed, but the churchgoers I encountered believed that they were right and everyone else was a satan-worshipper. They believed that they had it absolutely right - they had the Word direct from the Holy Spirit and they had no doubts whatsoever. Pentacostals, you know.
Since then I admit I've met a number of much more moderate and reasonable Christians, and even some Moslems, Buddhists and Hindus. They were much more reasonable about it than the church-goers of my earlier experience.
Thinking this way *ought* to lead to a very problematic existence. If you really believed that everyone else was a satan-worshipper...this would mean that if you go out to dinner, you'd be eating food cooked by satan worshippers. If you walked into the restaurant and someone held the door open for you, and you say thank you, you'd be saying thank you to a satan worshipper. If the waitress does a good job and you leave a nice tip, you're leaving a nice tip for a satan worshipper.
This might explain why some groups retreat from society to live in compounds. How could they not, they think that they're surrounded by satan worshippers? To that extent, it's a reasonable decision.
-Elliot
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
Yeah, I got the impression that some of them were pretty unhinged, and that's why I stopped going to that particular church. Well - that was one of the reasons. There were others. But paranoid conspiracy-theories were right up there on my list of reasons.
MLynn
Whippet of Peace
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2004
- Messages
- 3,586
Dioptre, first welcome to JREF. I'm a little late to this thread, but I just want to assure you that questioning and struggling with your Christian faith is normal. You are not alone. I can say this because I am a Christian too; a misfit here, but welcomed nevertheless.
I examine my faith often. I've even tried to be an atheist a couple of times and just can't seem to do it. No one has to be in a hurry. I'm still trying to figure out what's what myself.
I hope you don't stay away because of KK. There are fine people here; intelligent, caring people who are willing to listen. Trolls happen, but don't let that intimidate you - they add entertainment value, at least for awhile...
Please lurk and post freely! Oh, and you can PM me if you want to.
I examine my faith often. I've even tried to be an atheist a couple of times and just can't seem to do it. No one has to be in a hurry. I'm still trying to figure out what's what myself.
I hope you don't stay away because of KK. There are fine people here; intelligent, caring people who are willing to listen. Trolls happen, but don't let that intimidate you - they add entertainment value, at least for awhile...
Please lurk and post freely! Oh, and you can PM me if you want to.
Is it generally understood that people like Kathy are bad for this forum?
It appears to me that she brings out some good stuff from others that otherwise wouldn't be brought out.
Also, isn't she a good example of why it's good to be a skeptic?
Now, I can see if the forum was completely dominated by Kathy types. But surely it ain't.
-Elliot
It appears to me that she brings out some good stuff from others that otherwise wouldn't be brought out.
Also, isn't she a good example of why it's good to be a skeptic?
Now, I can see if the forum was completely dominated by Kathy types. But surely it ain't.
-Elliot
arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
Possibly, but trolls like Kathy generally annoy people a lot as well, and that's not so good.
I find myself skimming her posts, and not reading them. Maybe that's why I'm not so annoyed with her. I guess I've got her stereotyped, and this allows me to not get to involved with her posts. To this extent I agree that she's a troll, at least from my perspective.
I think that believers in this forum should have the ability, some ability, to detach themselves from their belief. I don't think Kathy can do that. I'm not saying Kathy, if you're reading this, that you should compromise your beliefs, or keep them to yourself. But you're literally coming from left field, or I guess it's right field, and you've accepted a litany of things that no one else accepts. Meaning you can't be appreciated as you really are because we're not at your level, whether it's a high/low/or just plain different level. The alternative is that you're on a personal proselytic campaign, and I do think that is not what these forums are for.
-Elliot