Converting from Christianity to Atheism

There's a thread in "Flame Wars" to continue this tangent, folks.


Dioptre, let me apologize for you having to find out the hard way about kathy's bulls***.

For the record Kathy, you still haven't answered the question od which set of 10 commandments you chose and why. However, you can start a new thread for that.

Dioptre, please put us back on topic.
 
Ok, some continuing thoughts.

1) I don't contest that it's possible to hold a rational belief in Christianity, and to argue convincingly that your belief is well founded. Of course, there's a wide spectrum of Christian belief, and a lot of it isn't rational - eg. a belief in biblical inerrancy flies in the face of strong evidence.

2) It's certainly possible to argue your way out of belief in Christianity. I seem to have done so.

3) Arguing your way back into a belief seems to require a willful suspension of disbelief. The sticking point is that Christianity doesn't just require you to agree with principles, it requires you to believe in certain facts which are either unfalsifiable, or for which the evidence is at best ambivalent and buried in the past.
 
Ok, some continuing thoughts.

1) I don't contest that it's possible to hold a rational belief in Christianity, and to argue convincingly that your belief is well founded. Of course, there's a wide spectrum of Christian belief, and a lot of it isn't rational - eg. a belief in biblical inerrancy flies in the face of strong evidence.

2) It's certainly possible to argue your way out of belief in Christianity. I seem to have done so.

3) Arguing your way back into a belief seems to require a willful suspension of disbelief. The sticking point is that Christianity doesn't just require you to agree with principles, it requires you to believe in certain facts which are either unfalsifiable, or for which the evidence is at best ambivalent and buried in the past.


Most re-conversions I've observed involve a personal experience. For example, John Cornwell spent almost twenty years as an activist secular humanist until he had a recurring dream about Catholicism that ended up coming true. He converted back to Catholicism after the experience.

This type of very personal experience is very difficult for skeptics to argue away without appearing ideological ourselves.
 
I doubt that he had such a dream. But, regardless, dreams are not evidence of any gods. I have to wonder if his recurrant dream was documented well before it "came true".
 
Ok, some continuing thoughts.

1) I don't contest that it's possible to hold a rational belief in Christianity, and to argue convincingly that your belief is well founded. Of course, there's a wide spectrum of Christian belief, and a lot of it isn't rational - eg. a belief in biblical inerrancy flies in the face of strong evidence.

2) It's certainly possible to argue your way out of belief in Christianity. I seem to have done so.

3) Arguing your way back into a belief seems to require a willful suspension of disbelief. The sticking point is that Christianity doesn't just require you to agree with principles, it requires you to believe in certain facts which are either unfalsifiable, or for which the evidence is at best ambivalent and buried in the past.

Just so. The reasons people go for a particular belief system are rarely intellectual. Mostly they are emotional, a need to belong, a need for the transcendent, a yearning for inner peace or some such. The intellectualisation of that movement come later.

I didn't aim to become an agnostic. I ended up in this position through a process which was primarily intellectual. I didn't enter the process because I wanted an easy life without religious demands placed upon it.

Dioptre, at the moment what you don't believe may be a lot stronger than what you do believe. But that will change. You need to read some positive stuff, not just negativity.
 
I doubt that he had such a dream. But, regardless, dreams are not evidence of any gods. I have to wonder if his recurrant dream was documented well before it "came true".

Regardless, it's an additional source of evidence, for those who personally experience such a thing, and just telling them: "I don't believe you," just makes skeptics look like they're in denial.




As to whether it was documented prior: yes, and this has already been evaluated by the authorities, as he was sued by the Vatican, accused of lying about his conversion story. He saw a therapist for these dreams, and his therapist's notes and his personal diay entries were made available. However, the possible interpretation is very broad, and could match many real-world situations. This is my evaluation.
 
Regardless, it's an additional source of evidence, for those who personally experience such a thing, and just telling them: "I don't believe you," just makes skeptics look like they're in denial.

Wrong, it's not denial to doubt such absurd claims.

However, the possible interpretation is very broad, and could match many real-world situations. This is my evaluation.

The interpretation is very broad. Why am I not surprised?
 
Ok, some continuing thoughts.

1) I don't contest that it's possible to hold a rational belief in Christianity, and to argue convincingly that your belief is well founded. Of course, there's a wide spectrum of Christian belief, and a lot of it isn't rational - eg. a belief in biblical inerrancy flies in the face of strong evidence.

2) It's certainly possible to argue your way out of belief in Christianity. I seem to have done so.

3) Arguing your way back into a belief seems to require a willful suspension of disbelief. The sticking point is that Christianity doesn't just require you to agree with principles, it requires you to believe in certain facts which are either unfalsifiable, or for which the evidence is at best ambivalent and buried in the past.

1) I'd say that it might be possible to hold some degree of a rational belief in Christianity. Now, can that belief by convincingly argued? I say no. But that doesn't mean you can't still believe in Christianity. It simply means that your belief is rooted in faith. If one is comfortable with faith, they can be Christian or any other religious belief.

2) I'd say it is possible to argue out of any belief due to the first point. And at some point in the argument, invariably, the word faith comes up. Faith cannot be argued. Faith is a decision made by the believer. It is a personal choice.

3) You will find this probably true of any religion. Arguing back in to a religious belief requires belief in things that can't be proven, hence faith.

Thus, I would argue that if religious conversion was based on logical and rational argument, there's little chance of going back to that religion.

I've seen people convert from Christianity to Islam because they viewed God as something that operates on a simple and basic premise, do good, and God rewards. Do bad, and God punishes. And some people like this.

I've seen people convert from Islam to Christianity because they felt God should be more personal and accessible. Just as Kathy argued when she quoted her husband on this thread. Some people like this.

And some deny either religion because, inevitably, they look at the sources and applied logical and rationale arguments. The key is not arguing the principles of the religion, because those principles can work for anyone based on personal preference and you are left inevitably arguing about the very nature of God in that case.

But, if faith is not good enough, then one might be encouraged to look at the source of a religion within historical context, applying logical and rationale arguments and analysis. And belief in a religion via this path is doomed to fail.

This is why faith, I think, is considered a virtue in many religions. Without it, you can't be a believer.

Whereas, in any other activity in society, faith is recognized as lazy and useless. You don't become an accountant because you have faith the numbers will work out. You don't make a good scientist if faith guides your approach to experimentation. An engineer that believes her contraption will work with out evidence (testing it) will find few buyers and/or endanger lives.

But religion answers the questions otherwise unanswerable:
Why are we here?
Where do we go when we die?
Is there a God, and if so, what are His qualities?
Faith will always have a place in this world so long as these questions are conclusively answered by old books written by unverified authors.

Dioptre, if you are comfortable with faith, to whatever degree, then I believe that you can be a believing Christian. Whether or not you want to base your beliefs in faith is up to you. But I see no way you can go back to Christianity by looking for evidence outside of religious texts.

The best evidence ends up being personal experience. Pretty much every KuriousKathy post reinforces this. If faith works for you, go for it.

Dioptre, if you don't feel satisfied with faith, if you want the conclusive evidence for any religion, I am personally not aware of it. Quite the contrary. However, that has been my own personal experience, and should be taken as such.

Good luck.
 
This makes the assumption that there is a God, and that he/she/it cares about such things.



Which one? And why? Is this God so short of self-esteem?



Which one? How do we know we've got the right one?



Jesus H Christ! Do we have to?



I nominate Mondays. I hate Mondays.



I've buried both of them. How much respect do you want?



I think it's safe to say that I've followed this one. However the dominant theme of the Old Testament appears to be the concept of "Holy War", and I'm sure righteous killing was the done thing.

Oh, and what happened to Jeptha's daughter?



Many people have been. However sometimes the spouses have played away.



Unless God told you that you were supposed to have it in the first place....



Impossible. Language and human nature bear false witness all the time, sometimes for good reason.


I sometimes wonder if a little bit of avarice isn't a good thingg after all.



They are not standards. They are designed to fail everybody. I'm only surprised they didn't circumscribe breathing.



The prickling in my heart is probably indigestion, not false guilt to fail to come up to impossible standards. It's clear that all religions are based on impossible standards and false guilt to propagate themselves.

We're all prone to guilty feelings. The question is to we deify them?

I think not.

Arhrrrrrr, “shiver me timbers!” they be more like guidelines, than actual rules, arhrrrrrrr, …. Arhrrrrrrr!
 
Before I realised that I was an atheist, I believed that everyone had their own religion, with their own beliefs and requirements. Everyone's religion was equally valid.

Then I realised what a wishy-washy, wimpy attitude that was.
 
Before I realised that I was an atheist, I believed that everyone had their own religion, with their own beliefs and requirements. Everyone's religion was equally valid.

Then I realised what a wishy-washy, wimpy attitude that was.

Regardless of a person's religious position, do you have more respect for them if they take the "objective" view rather than the "subjective" view?
 
I would, if I had ever encountered anyone who took an "objective" view of religion.

By that, of course, I meant simply a person taking the view that religious propositions are either objectively true or objectively false. This would be in contrast to the the attitude that my religious views are valid for me, yours are valid for you, etc. Does that make the question any clearer?
 
Yes, but atheism is not a religion, so that doesn't count.

Just to clarify, it doesn't matter to my question that atheism is not a religion. It is a religious view - a viewpoint regarding matters of religion - in the broad sense in which I was using the expression.
 

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